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The VG1-5 and Gas-Delayed Blowback
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  blurrededge

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Posted: January 16 2010 at 1:28am | IP Logged Quote blurrededge

The VG1-5:


The Volkssturmgewehr 1-5 is a 7.92 x 33 mm (7.92 mm Kurz) caliber semi-automatic rifle developed by Nazi Germany during World War II. Also known as the VG 1-5, Volkssturm-Gewehr 1-5, Versuchs-Gerat 1-5 and "Gustloff." It was intended to be used by the Volkssturm militia.
Volkssturmgewehr 1-5 used a gas-delayed blowback action based on the Barnitzke system, whereby gas bled from the barrel near the chamber creates resistance to the rearward impulse of the operating parts, which ceases when the projectile leaves the muzzle, allowing the operating parts to be forced rearward by the residual pressure of the cartridge case. This principle has been used most successfully in the Heckler & Koch PSP or P7 pistol.
The VG 1-5 is constructed rather like many automatic pistols, it has a casing and spring around the barrel and the whole casing recoils backward. The breach block, with firing pin and extractor, is pinned to the back end of the barrel casing. The rear end of the gun does not recoil and has the hammer, sear and trigger built into it. Gas coming from four vents, near the end of the of the barrel hold the bolt closed till the gas pressure drops to a safe level. The VG 1-5 used the same 30 shot 7.92 x 33 mm (7.92 mm Kurz) caliber magazine as the Sturmgewehr 44.

The following was a PDF copy of a 1972 Guns and Ammo article:




These photo's I found on a forum where a member posted photo's of their field stripped carbine:




I find it interresting that the gas ports are so far forward on the barrel (about 12" out of a 15" barrel). I can only assume that the bolt is heavy enough to delay movement until the bullet passes the ports which then holds the breech closed until pressure drops enough to cycle the weapon. On this diagram of the Walther P7, the port is right in front of the chamber.


I would think that a system similar to the pistol, with a gas chamber closer to the breech would be more likely to hold the bolt completely closed, particularly advantageous if a lighter bolt were used. I would also assume that the pressure drop from bleeding gas into an expansion chamber would affect the overall velocity less than some gas blowback systems if the gas chamber were small, and as sealed as possible. A design similar to a conventional gas blowback, but with the system appropriately reversed and re-arranged, is one that comes to mind first when contemplating a home-build system. More complicated maybe than the VG1-5, but possibly safer and more reliable? Hopefully I will have the time to attempt such a build in the near future (read, next decade).
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Posted: January 16 2010 at 1:56am | IP Logged Quote weaponeer

Thats the first time I had seen anything on that rifle.

thanks for sharing that...
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  blurrededge

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Posted: January 16 2010 at 2:02am | IP Logged Quote blurrededge

The result of Hours of going through almost one hundred pages of google search results. I wish I could have found more detailed pictures, or even diagrams, but this is enough for basic info.
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Posted: January 16 2010 at 2:41am | IP Logged Quote blurrededge

Forget to include this image of a dug up remnant, but it does show some detail that the simpla field stripped pics don't


And another showing an alternate stock and foregrip, although the barrel appears to be shorter on that version.
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  gundoctor

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Posted: January 16 2010 at 10:18am | IP Logged Quote gundoctor

Takes a little while looking at it to understand, and looking at the pistol mechanism didn't help me understand the rifle much. But after I realized that the shroud actually contains the boltface and can be visualized like a 1911 slide it made sense.

Disadvantages would be sights / optics that recoil. It would also be dependent on the fit of the "bushing" in the cap for accuracy, much like an autoloading pistol.

Even if not used in a delayed action but in a simple blowback this might allow relatively simple, novel, compact design.

But damn, while playing with this and trying to figure it out a brand new entirely different design came to me. Been playing with it on paper for 20 minutes and am getting excited. It could have huge implications in a specific application. Thanks for posting.
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  dcorb

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Posted: January 16 2010 at 10:38am | IP Logged Quote dcorb

Here is one to purchase:

Buy here

Gundoctor note: I am pretty sure that is a "doll sized" toy
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Posted: January 16 2010 at 10:49am | IP Logged Quote dcorb

Developed by Karl Barnitzke for Primitiv-Waffen-Programm, the Volkssturmgewehr VG 1-5 or 1-5 was developed as a cheap weapon, easy and quick production should equip the soldiers of the Volkssturm. It used the same cartridge and comb rifle StG 44 and had a system of gas-based system Barnitzke. Some VG 1-5 were produced with the selection of fire. About 10,000 units were produced between January 1945 and the end of the war.



Volkssturmbataillon equipped with the VG 1-5.

Specifications Volkssturmgewehr 1-5

Caliber: 7.92
Length: 960mm
Barrel length: 380mm
Weight: 4.27 kilograms
Initial velocity of the projectile: 685m / s
Comb: 30 cartridges
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Posted: January 16 2010 at 10:57am | IP Logged Quote dcorb

Another picture:



some other interesting guns here
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Posted: January 16 2010 at 11:42am | IP Logged Quote dcorb

Nice big image here
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  nacht

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Posted: January 16 2010 at 8:17pm | IP Logged Quote nacht

Looking at the rusted VG 1-5 makes me change my mind about the recoil spring being inside the gas chamber.

The large picture makes it easier to see that the receiver is made from three sheet metal stamping welded together (one on each side and a bottom stamping), with the stock trunnion, the barrel trunnion, and a handguard support that also serves as a mono rail for the tube to slide on....keeping it from turning from side to side.

The more I look, the easier to build this appears. I think I would change the FCG to the AK FCG, as well as making the receiver wider at this place for the FCG. Doing that...means you could use a AKM rear trunnion and stock.

I think a thicker sheet metal should be used for the receiver, such as the 1.6 thickness of the Yugo.

For that matter, why not use a AK bent blank for the homebuild prototype.
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Posted: January 16 2010 at 8:24pm | IP Logged Quote nacht

A closes look at the stripped barrel appears to show the gas holes at the shoulder of the barrel, which makes sense, This will get the gas into the chamber quicker, as well as help keep the gas in the chamber.

Having the gas holes at 12" will allow the pressure to drop quickly, as the gas chamber moves rearward pass the holes.

This rifle is a very doable build for a homebuilder with a welder. Although a metal lathe will allow the builder to make his own barrels, instead of shopping them out.
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  blurrededge

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Posted: January 16 2010 at 8:34pm | IP Logged Quote blurrededge

I must admit that that rusted hunk did shed some light on things for me as well.
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  36gOPFOR

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Posted: January 16 2010 at 11:21pm | IP Logged Quote 36gOPFOR

As a convienience, this build would work very nicely in .223 using HK33 mags - seeing as MP44 mags are not too cheap, and neither is the ammo!
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  blurrededge

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Posted: January 17 2010 at 2:39am | IP Logged Quote blurrededge

I was thinking AK, but really any mid sized cartridge could be adapted. HK mags aren't entirely cheap either.
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  gundoctor

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Posted: January 17 2010 at 1:57pm | IP Logged Quote gundoctor

I think it would be great in M1 carbine. The straight case would help in the reliability of the design IMHO.

The other thought would be to also incorporate a suppressor in the shroud.

By making a new magazine to accommodate a 30 carbine round with a heavier bullet loaded to maximum subsonic velocity this could make an interesting special purpose platform.
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Posted: January 17 2010 at 5:15pm | IP Logged Quote nacht

Gundoctor, the gas delay probably wont be needed with the .30 M-1 carbine cartridge. Just a strong recoil spring should do the job.

This is based on prototype Thompson SMGs in .30 M-1 Carbine made during WWII. The army passed on them because they were a lot more expense than the M-1 Carbine, and a lot heavier.

It is a good idea for a build, however.
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  36gOPFOR

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Posted: February 22 2010 at 5:59pm | IP Logged Quote 36gOPFOR

I ran across one of these at the Show of Shows in Louisville over the weekend. Here are a few closer photos. This rifle was priced at $35,000.












There was also a 2nd Model FG42 complete with bayonet, three magazines and the original scope and mount - only $165,000.
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  nacht

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Posted: February 22 2010 at 7:20pm | IP Logged Quote nacht

Thanks for the pictures. I still have hopes of building a VG 1-5 some day, and a picture is still worth a thousand words.
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  blurrededge

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Posted: December 16 2010 at 1:01pm | IP Logged Quote blurrededge

Found, on Page 402, in "The Machine Gun" Vol. 4, a diagram of the VG1-5's operation.

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  soakandquench

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Posted: April 03 2011 at 8:37pm | IP Logged Quote soakandquench

the more i look at it the simpler it actually is looking to build. personally i would go with tubing for the round parts, either and AR or AK fcg, a simple sheet metal lower can be made, or you can get a bit more involved and weld up a good one. the slide rails on the back can be tacked on angle, the rail under the hand guard can be made from the combination of a piece of channeling and a small i beam or flat bar. to lighten up the i beam or flat bar it could be skeletonized a bit.the magwell could be made for just about any cartridge design, but probably the easiest to marry it to is any of the magazines for the AR series. if you wanted to go with 7.62x39 or 5.45 there are even AR mags for those. in fact this might be where Stoner got some of his ideas for the AR, since the magwell and lower are similar. hell even the FCG looks like an AR fcg.

the rest of it looks to be stuff just welded together mostly.

as far as the gas rings go, those can be added by cutting rings out of a piece of 4130 tubing and either tacking them on and grinding, or soldering them on after a press fit.

barrels are cheap, no need to profile them, build the gas chamber tube to fit the barrel.

the stock can be cut out of any piece of wood or an existing scrap stock can be used and altered to fit the simple design.

heck i might even tackle this one myself since i know i have most of the junk i can use to build one right here. and its semi auto so its kind of a no brainer.

since the bolt is pinned in, just about any design bolt that can be cut from a piece of steel, or milled down to fit inside the slide tube, or even thrown together like a luty steel collar bolt, will work here.
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