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Weaponeer Forums : Weapon History

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  Sagittarii

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Posted: December 24 2011 at 7:37am | IP Logged Quote Sagittarii

Some more odd weapons, I have posted some notes on Wikipedia re F1 characteristics & handling.
It has the dual action trigger I have promised to post some drawings on. I am seriously time deprived.
F1 was a real late comer good design well balanced lightning fast to operate I doubt any current SMG would match it for speed of operation.
Mag pops off simply by grabbing it catch in right spot, mag well visible slam another in. Unfortunately long & heavy the, M16 killed it lighter & better cartridge.
Had conversation with Major while in service re F1. His version Sigs (Radio Op) initially carried pistol only in Vietnam. F1 came out everybody wanted one, M16 came out everybody wanted one. Started finding lots of dead Americans with faulty M16s' everybody wanted an F1
Sort of a Hybrid design followed Owen Gun layout renowned for its reliability. MG 42 style But Sterling Mags Sort of Sten Bolt. Trigger off old Hungarian design disappeared with nary a trace. Has taken me a long time to collect drawings.


79645_F1_SMG.PDF


42B6C_Smith_and_Wesson_Light_Rifle_Manual.pdf


9F673_Smith_and_Wesson_Light_Rifle_review_GunFacts.pdf


47927_Individual_Multi-Purpose_Weapon_IMP-221_GUU-4P_SMG_USA .zip
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  Zuzzy

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Posted: December 26 2011 at 11:51am | IP Logged Quote Zuzzy

Excellent material, but only first file corresponds to the F1,
but files about S&W and the IMP smg are also very good.
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  Sagittarii

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Posted: December 27 2011 at 5:19am | IP Logged Quote Sagittarii

Have posted some files in Blueprints & Drawings (Semi to Full Auto Trigger) with Trigger & Armorers parts list for F1.
Will post another section F1, Owen, Aus Sten.
Honestly AUS & Britain both publish what they call PAMs' Military Pamphlets they never really get much better then what you see.
Nothing like the professional looking TM & FM of the US.
I have located a Training manual for the F1 waiting on its arrival.
It's easier to find a picture of Bigfoot wiping his butt on a Dodo than something on the F1. I asked Ian Skennerton to publish something I could hear the crickets chirping on the other end of the line.
As in interesting sideline I found out in WW2 the US ordered 60,000 Owens. Not filled, order supposedly got lost, more likely someone thought it was a joke or it would take years to fill the order and didn't try.
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  Zuzzy

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Posted: December 27 2011 at 11:25am | IP Logged Quote Zuzzy

These are interesting and rare informations, so if you come up with something we will be grateful.

If I recall correctly there is this guy Ron Owen from Au that published or is planning to publish a book on Owen gun, also he did make some of the guns himself (his own designs, owns machine shop), maybe you know somthing more of it.
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  Sagittarii

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Posted: December 27 2011 at 9:27pm | IP Logged Quote Sagittarii

Ron Owen has a web site book still in draft form.
Browsed part of it this may be the reason the US never got its 60,000 Owens' A hospital ship carrying weapons was sunk.
We also had an incompetent General named Blamey who preferred the inferior Aus Sten
As a side note the AUS government tried to get a bronze of Gen Blamey done, the New Guinea veterans prevented it.
One of his more famous incidents was telling the 200 surviving soldiers of a 600 man Battalion after they had fought for weeks "If they had not spent so much time running away the Japanese would have been beaten". He found Stalins do or die speeches encouraging.

Why Were They So Quick to Close The Owen Gun Project?

Going back to April 1943, the Australian High Command could have found themselves in the middle of another political minefield. In April the Prime Minister, Mr. John Curtin, ” expressed great concern and said that the matter would be decided by the War Cabinet at a meeting in the next few days. Then on the facts, Cabinet reversed the decision and acknowledged the Owen Gun as the standard submachine gun for the Australian Forces. Then Two further orders, each for five thousand (5,000) guns, were later placed with Lysaght’s but that was in April, but by May they had to spend money in a huge war propaganda campaign to paint the Japanese as demons for sinking the ‘Centaur’. That would all have been for nothing as their bodies and their careers would have been hung out to dry if it had come out that the Centaur was loaded with Owen Guns and 9 mm ammunition. Was that the reason that Lysaght’s received no more orders after May 1943. Was the Centaur the reason the Owen Gun project was cancelled? Was that the reason why thousands of Australian troops had to make do with inferior products or none at all.
All that was in front of the Australian High Command. They did not know anything about an atomic bomb, no one did. The Australian’s were still fighting the Japs in New Guinea in 1943. In 1943 there was fear about yesterday, fear about today and fear about tomorrow. Nothing was certain and everyone knew the war had a long way to run, before our lads got to Tokyo. The Americans had ordered 60,000 Owen Guns just for its Pacific forces. The Canadians had tested the Owen Gun and found it the best in all tested. The British that were still making 20,000 Sten Guns per week in one factory at Fazakerley in Lancashire and carried on making them until September 1945 making over two million in total. The British had tested all types and the Owen Gun had come out the best in all classes of tests.
Why did they continue to make an inferior product in vast quantities when by 1943 they had established that the Owen Gun was the best? Who put them off from accepting the Owen Gun?
Was it that the John Lysaght factory, which was only a hundred yards from the dock, that had the ability of loading its Owen Guns directly onto the ships that took them to the battlefield had to be packed up, and closed to prevent any uncontrolled investigation into the Centaur sinking?
To stop ordering the most sort after sub machine gun of World War Two in May 1943 when even in January 1945 the three Allied Powers Russia, USA and Great Britain were convinced that the war would not end until 1946 or 1947 and that they would have to accept a million Allied Casualties in the invasion of the Japan main islands and that invasion would take at least a year.

Yet the Australian High Command stopped ordering in May 1943 and had the factory closed up by September 1944?
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  Sagittarii

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Posted: January 03 2012 at 11:59am | IP Logged Quote Sagittarii

Ron Owen web site


http://www.owenguns.com/
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