I recently looked back at the AR-180 after quite some time of thinking that it was just some off the wall prototype. Quite the opposite really.

Not only did the AR-180 spur such other arms as the SA80 and G36, but it's significantly better than a direct impingement AR15/M16.

For one it's piston driven from the start compared to the AR15 which requires special bolt carriers and ETC to prevent damage to the rifle from operating in a way it was never intended to operate.

From what I've read it's slightly more accurate than the AR15.



And of course, the earlier models were made much like an AK, out of a stamped sheet of steel.

My question is why aren't there any kits (i.e. receiver flats) like you find for AKs?

I mean compared to a 0-80% AR lower, it's far far less machining operations due to it's more simplistic operating principle.

To me the relationship between the M-16 and AR-15 is similar to the relationship between the P08 Luger and the Borchardt C-93. One did something new and innovative but was cumbersome and had flaws, while the other took the original idea and improved upon it.

I don't possess an AR-180 myself but if anyone does, it might be a good idea to take measurements, and make a blueprint.

Quite unfortunately I learned about the fate of the AR-18 tooling after Armalite was finished with it. "The AR-18 tooling at the Costa Mesa shop went to the Philippines, while some of the remaining ArmaLite employees acquired the remaining inventory of parts for the AR-17 and AR-18."

Granted the older stamped receiver models do have their problems. I think we could now get away with using more AR15 components in it to save on costs rather than having to make things from scratch.

The features of the AR180B would be somewhere to draw from. Use as many AR15 parts as you can, pretty much all of the FCG components are similar if not the same. Not sure about the bolt or barrel, but there may be some adaptation that can be accomplished. I'm not a fan of polymer lowers but certainly the idea of switching the mag release to the proper orientation to take unmodified AR15 mags is a no brainer.

Possibly add a way to use an AR15 pistol grip and trigger guard.

I know that Storm Werkz makes two stock adapters that let you screw in either a carbine or rifle length buffer tube and use AR15 stocks without issue.

The biggest issue for me would be a rail on the top. It'd be nice to have one that's permanently mounted instead of using an adapter.

Does anyone agree with me?

Hey orenG: I agree with you all the way . I have owned 3 AR-180's, would love to own an AR-18 But too pricey.
I still currently have one built by Sterling.  In my research the AR-18 is what the AR-15 was supposed to be, But as Stoner was working out the final bugs Colt scored a patent and a military contract for the 15.
By the time the 18 was ready Uncle Sam had already committed to the 15. Yes this is the shortened version of what happened but it turned out the same.  We all know the back history of the 15 with the problems inherent in the system, but i don't understand why it still hold the popularity it does. Probably the simplicity, much like the AK in any form its simple to work with once trained and easy to maintain.
As For the piston Drive its much cleaner and recoil is actually lighter than the 15.  The accuracy on mine has proven to be just as good if not better than most 15's I've gone up against. I have pissed off a couple of guys at the range with there $2000 guncase queens, and i with my beat-up old often unknown 18 That cost me $900.
(Actually it not to beat-up i kept the best one when i sold and traded the other two.)  As to putting a rail on top it could be fairly easy Drill and tap the rail from the bottem, then drill two or three hole through the top of the rec. and use some flat head screws with good locktite to hold it on. I've seen worse methods.  Front tactical hand guards would be fairly easy to mod up for accessories .
See now you got me thinkin  Maybe i shouldn't have sold the one i had with a blown rec. (A bad round ballooned the upper and lower recs. and blew apart the bolt) The rec. could have been pressed back down and the blown parts replaced then could have made a TactiCool AR-18 out of it. HHMMM.
Anyway there is not a lot avlb. on or for them as they were only adopted by the Japanese for a short period of time.(See Howa Japan manufactured)  The Britts built the most but by contract not for adoption. Kinda funny the Irish (IRA) love to get as many of the Britt. built as the can. All of this was during the late 50's early 60's so there has never really been a surplus of parts to make up kits.
Finding spare parts is very difficult to do and armilite has nothing for the 180 at all. They still warehouse alot of parts for the 180b most of will fit or can be modified to work (had to do this with a bolt carrier and hold open on one of mine) So if you find a rifle missing parts at a decent price its possible to put it back in working order.
They ain't cheap but there out there.
The Storm Werkz things are fine if you want it to look like a 15 but WHY???  I like mine the way it looks, just different enough to make the AR-15 guys go What kind of AR-15 is that?
Anyway If i can help you in your research let me know I have some paper work on the history of the rifle i would be happy to send copies i also have an operation and maint. manual i could copy for you.
Good luck on your search  If you nfind anything new about it i would like to see it.
Ryche

ryche wrote: Hey orenG: I agree with you all the way . I have owned 3 AR-180's, would love to own an AR-18 But too pricey. I still currently have one built by Sterling.  In my research the AR-18 is what the AR-15 was supposed to be, But as Stoner was working out the final bugs Colt scored a patent and a military contract for the 15. By the time the 18 was ready Uncle Sam had already committed to the 15. Yes this is the shortened version of what happened but it turned out the same.  We all know the back history of the 15 with the problems inherent in the system, but i don't understand why it still hold the popularity it does. Probably the simplicity, much like the AK in any form its simple to work with once trained and easy to maintain. As For the piston Drive its much cleaner and recoil is actually lighter than the 15.  The accuracy on mine has proven to be just as good if not better than most 15's I've gone up against. I have pissed off a couple of guys at the range with there $2000 guncase queens, and i with my beat-up old often unknown 18 That cost me $900. (Actually it not to beat-up i kept the best one when i sold and traded the other two.)  As to putting a rail on top it could be fairly easy Drill and tap the rail from the bottem, then drill two or three hole through the top of the rec. and use some flat head screws with good locktite to hold it on. I've seen worse methods.  Front tactical hand guards would be fairly easy to mod up for accessories . See now you got me thinkin  Maybe i shouldn't have sold the one i had with a blown rec. (A bad round ballooned the upper and lower recs. and blew apart the bolt) The rec. could have been pressed back down and the blown parts replaced then could have made a TactiCool AR-18 out of it. HHMMM. Anyway there is not a lot avlb. on or for them as they were only adopted by the Japanese for a short period of time.(See Howa Japan manufactured)  The Britts built the most but by contract not for adoption. Kinda funny the Irish (IRA) love to get as many of the Britt. built as the can. All of this was during the late 50's early 60's so there has never really been a surplus of parts to make up kits. Finding spare parts is very difficult to do and armilite has nothing for the 180 at all. They still warehouse alot of parts for the 180b most of will fit or can be modified to work (had to do this with a bolt carrier and hold open on one of mine) So if you find a rifle missing parts at a decent price its possible to put it back in working order. They ain't cheap but there out there. The Storm Werkz things are fine if you want it to look like a 15 but WHY???  I like mine the way it looks, just different enough to make the AR-15 guys go What kind of AR-15 is that? Anyway If i can help you in your research let me know I have some paper work on the history of the rifle i would be happy to send copies i also have an operation and maint. manual i could copy for you. Good luck on your search  If you nfind anything new about it i would like to see it. Ryche

Hey there, thanks for the offer but I've got a copy of the manual I found online. Unfortunately it doesn't do me any good in terms of reverse engineering the thing. I really need to find someone local who has one and take some time to blueprint it.

Personally I like the Storm Werkz stock adapter because you can use some of the excellent after market stocks available for the AR15.  To my eye, it would appear as if Armalite intended to develop the stock and hand guard further, but with no interest in it, they had no reason to.

It would appear that people are still doing things with it.



Volk Arms is basically making AR style lowers for it. I know that Vulcan Arms is doing basically the same thing.

I'd really like to see someone make a unique milled upper and lower for the AR180 instead of turning it into a piston run AR.

It's too bad there's even less info on the AR-18.

I read somewhere that the full auto capabilities lie completely within the bolt carrier, and does not rely on an auto sear like the M16/M4



This was all I could find on it.

just out of interest here is the Australian version of it  http://www.olarmyjoel.com/Virtual%20Arms%20Room/australian_l eader_dynamics_t2_mk.htm

WOW! I for one like the looks of that rifle, and would be interested in more information!

Anyway If i can help you in your research let me know I have some paper work on the history of the rifle i would be happy to send copies i also have an operation and maint. manual i could copy for you.
Good luck on your search If you nfind anything new about it i would like to see it.
Ryche
            









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Gents,
I have a set of drawings for the AR180 I will see if I can get them scanned it as they are on legal size paper and won't fit on my scanner. Parts kits used to be available from Numerich or Gun Parts Corp, They still have some parts available. The AR180 starts the lineage of quite a few other rifles IE: SAR80, Leader Dynamics MK 4or5, SA80 and others. Gene stoner was on the original design team but James Sullivan was the one that kept it going after stoner moved on.
Artty

Wow Somehow my last post end up with someone else s icon.
Artty: i would be interested if the scan works.

As for the FA control most of its in the bolt but there is a trip in the rec.
You can see it hanging right in the center of the upper rec.
The semi's don't have that.  It would be interesting to have access to one for tear and compare.
Ryche

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hmJXqHoxac

I wish someone would do this gun right when they copy it.  The guys here in the sandbox would be better off with this gun than the M4.  

 

 

This is brilliant software cheap too.
How it works I scanned two pages by doing left right then middle as photos 3 scans. It automatically stitches them together as one page and makes a pdf with no gap showing in the middle from the book. Check out Lewis Gun Wall Poster in Blueprints & Drawings

www.serif.com/scanstitchshare/

This is the location of some images of the Australian AR 18 Clone

www.forgottenweapons.com/rifles/australian-automatic- arms-sac

I would like to see someone copy this gun and do it right.

I hope someone makes a kit for this nice light 5.56 gun

Anyone needing the print scan email me( mike AT magarms DOT com) and I'llI send it to you.
Regards,
Artty

Mike,

Thanks for your offer!

brent brown wrote: I would like to see someone copy this gun and do it right.

I had an idea earlier to basically adapt as many AR15 parts as possible considering they are cheap and mostly reliable, but parts such as the bolt carrier, recoil spring, etc would be of AR-180 design. 

I'll see if I can't get the inspiration to design something again. There has to be a way to make a kit gun somewhat inexpensively out of this idea.



Not sure where this is from, but whoever made it had the right idea.

Just a quick run down of what I'd like to accomplish in terms of AR compatible parts:

Barrel
Flash Hider/Muzzle Brake
FCG
Take down pins
Pistol Grip
Trigger guard
Stocks (via trunnion with folding and non-folding option)
Magazines
Firing Pin
Bolt
Cam pin
Extractor


Bayonets

Parts that would have to be manufactured:

Upper Receiver
Lower Receiver
Piston Assembly
Bolt Carrier
Recoil Assembly
Charging handle (Looking for inspiration, probably something along the lines of a G36/XM8 style charging handle)
Carrying Handle/optic mount (taken from Leader T2)

Parts/features need to be researched/added:

Bolt hold open/bolt release


I foresee the upper receiver having a picatinny rail up top, and most likely a small picatinny rail section where the front sight would be.

I'd also like to see the charging handle be non-reciprocating like on the AR15, but in a much more convenient position that doesn't require a special latch or other mechanism to hold it closed. I'm not sure how the charging handle works on the Leader T2, but I would imagine something that contacts the bolt carrier when pulling back, but is not connected by any means, only touching.


I did a quick mock up in Autodesk Inventor, this is my idea of what the lower should look like:

I'd also like to see the charging handle be non-reciprocating and on the left side.  Vulcan Armament inc. had a V18 that look good but I have not seem anythiong about it or if they still sell it

Here is a link to a web site a just found.

 

http://www.vulcanarmament.com/cgistore/store.cgi?page=/new/p roduct.html&setup=1&ida=228&idp=0&his=0& cart_id=4002380.8004

The Vulcan V18 rifle is our version of the AR-180. It has the following features:
1. A2 flash hider, ½-28TPI
2. 20” barrel, 1-7” twist, CHROME lined
3. Machined gas block front sight base, co witnesses with the M1913 Picatinny rail mounted on the top of the upper receiver.
4. Fully adjustable gas system that allows the use of different loadings
5. FAL style hand guards made from virtually indestructible polymer
6. Short stroke gas piston overcomes the shortcomings of the M16 system. It is cleaner, cooler, more reliable
6. Upper is formed from heat treated SAE 4130 steel
7. Full length M1913 Picatinny scope mount, co-witness with front gas block rail
8. Unique charging handle designed for ambidextrous use, use as a forward assist, and functions as a shell deflector
9. AR ergonomics – Carbon fiber lower is stronger and lighter than aluminum, standard AR fire control parts, standard AR pistol grip, takes standard M16 magazines and drums. The lower is NOT the same as an AR lower, a V18 upper will NOT fit on a standard AR type lower
10. Last round hold open
11. Aluminum recoil plate
12. Polymer Skeleton left folding stock.

Each V18 purchased directly from Vulcan Group comes complete with muzzle break/flash hider, sling, manual, case, cleaning kit, oiler, gun lock, magazine, removable scope rail, and vulcan logo knife (no scope) - a $295 value!

Caliber: 5.56mm (.223 Rem)
Length: V18-100 - 39 inches
Weight: V18-100 - 6.8 Lbs
Barrel: V18-100 - 20” chrome lined, 1-7” twist

I like the price. I have to say, the guy on their homepage looks like he has been into grandpas wacky tobaccy!   

I would think the original design with the sheet metal receiver would be lighter? Can you still buy kits for these?