Hello,

Quite a while ago, when I started DIY gun building, I appropriated one of these kits from a friend. My friend obtained the kit years ago, thinking (as a young teenager) that it would be a good idea to have an untraceable smg lying around. Needless to say, with time, he has since changed his mind about that. He told me it had been collecting dust in his garage and that I would be able to put it to better use. The only restriction he put on it was that I couldn't modify it to be incapable of firing live ammo (he didn't want me to make it a BFONG or blank fire only non-gun).

Of course I started out trying to convert this to closed bolt semi auto, but with the tools I have access to, I was unable to do this. I then set it aside in frustration for a few months.

Recently, while waiting for parts on my current build, I started up this project again. Ready to be done with this project, I just neutered it down to a single shot.

The magazine has been welded in place and does not protrude into the tube that is the receiver. The hole for the magazine has been welded shut. The internals of the magazine have been removed and the magazine base has been permanently sealed shut. The trigger group has been modified (poorly as I will state later) so as to be semi auto only, and not progressive. If for some reason, the bolt is in the firing position (back) and you pull the trigger all the way down (it will click and the sear will pop up), and the bolt doesn't slide forward, then the sear will get stuck in such a way that minor disassembly is required.

For operation, first pull the bolt back to a firing position. Second, flip the bolt catch to impede the charging handle. Third, while holding the charging handle, pull the trigger and slowly let the charging handle move forward until it reaches the impediment (similar to how you would un-cock a revolver). Load your one shot through the ejection port. Charge the bolt. Once the bolt is securely in the charged position, unblock the charging handle slot. Finally fire.

Firing should leave the bolt in a ready to fire position, which would then leave you at step 2.

Pictures:













Now for those who are familiar with the CZ 23-26 design, how the hell am I supposed to bend a tiny piece to 1/8" thick tube in such a way that the charging handle magically pops out and into position? All without damaging the overall roundness of the receiver? Since I didn't attach the SBR folding butt stock, I just drilled a hole in the bottom so that a screwdriver could pop up the charging handle.





Thanks,
Tanner Frisby

Hey Tanner, you never cease to amaze me! You seem to be full of creativity and energy! I am dumbfounded by your age as well! ( Or lack of to put it into understandable terms for those who don't know him)

I got a close eye on you and i am very much looking forward to your "other" project!

Thanks Mech warrior, but that "other" project is still awaiting pieces and is/will be at a standstill until they come. I have a few other projects that I think will be wrapped up first. However, I hope to have the "other" project ready for dove season.

As iterated above, this is completely legal as it doesn't have a magazine well. With this said, when I took this to one of my local gun shops (the only one that will actually take me serious) quite a few of the gunsmiths were leery and squeamish about it being open bolt. Can somebody please point me to the actual law that that states open bolt is legal with out a magazine well or any other form of feeding? I would like to have this printed out when I take this to my local range.

Thanks,
Tanner Frisby

Hey Tanner, sorry i can not find the law that states that. But, as far as i know, open bolt is a MG feature. But, an MG is defined as firing more then a single shot with a single pull of the trigger, so.......????

You could always contact ATF if you can not find it! It will be a slow process but, might be worth it.

Maybe someone else can help!!!!!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9u3p3yq09WU&feature=youtu.be

Has extraction problems.
One thing I didn't think about:
Since the round isn't stripped from a magazine, this firearm can't be shot at an angle much higher than parallel. If you aim strait up, the round falls out of the barrel. This caused one misfire.

Local gun shop buddy gave me 5 rounds to test fire with. Took it to the local range (first time I've ever shot at a range before. Very loud.) Having never been to a range (I used to do my shooting on family owned land, but apparently, I was "scaring" the goats ) I expected them to ask me what I was shooting among other questions. I just filled out a waiver and they gave me a lane. Started off with the two .22lr shells I made. Those got me some nasty looks from the range officer until he realized it was ejecting .22 cases. Once the officer went away, I brought out and assembled the single shot. Three shots later and the lights flickered and the officer told everybody to disarm as he was shutting down the range.
On the outside: "okay"
On the inside: " OH SH*T "
Turns out I had nothing to worry about One of the lanes needed maintenance. When he got to my lane, he tried to remove the magazine, I showed him it was a prop mag on a single shot. Everybody was happy. The end.
Hope you enjoyed the video.

Thanks,
Tanner Frisby

I liked it. I thought you did a good job and showed alot of creativity! I am still not sure about the open bolt even though it only fires 1 round. Why not make it semi auto and add some blockers to prevent the FA parts from being inserted?

I have searched a few times for info on this subject but have not had any luck with solid statements. I willkeep looking!

"Why not make it semi auto and add some blockers to prevent the FA parts from being inserted? " - Mech warrior

This is what I started off doing, but I wasn't successful and was looking to move on to the next project.


This is the best my research has yielded.

478.11 - Meaning of terms
Machinegun. Any weapon which
shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be
readily restored to shoot, automatically
more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger.
The term shall also include the frame or
receiver of any such weapon, any part
designed and intended solely and exclusively,
or combination of parts designed
and intended, for use in converting a
weapon into a machine gun, and any
combination of parts from which a machine
gun can be assembled if such parts
are in the possession or under the control
of a person.

They also conducted a few test cases with semi-auto open bolts. All the ones I could find were roughly identical, so here is one example.

ATF Rul. 82-2

The disconnector is designed in the KG-9 pistol in such a way that a simple modification to it, such as cutting, filing, or grinding, allows the pistol to operate automatically. Thus, this simple modification to the disconnector together with the configuration of the above design features (blowback operation, firing from the open bolt position, and fixed firing pin) in the KG-9 permits the firearm to shoot automatically, more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger.

This firearm would have to have the magazine well cut off, the welds blocking the magazine port to be cut out of the receiver, the magazine well to be cleaned and then the magazine well be reattached to the receiver. This is no simple modification such as (although, probably not limited to) cutting, filing or grinding. I think the requirement of welding paired with numerous cuts is what sets this well apart from a simple modification.

As it stands, with the magazine not protruding through the receiver and permanently occupying the magazine well such that another magazine can't be inserted, this firearm is restricted solely to manual reloading of each individual round.

That is my non lawyer opinion on this subject.

Thanks,
Tanner Frisby

NICE!!!

I like it!

Unfortunately the last sentence says it all.. The BATFE has the power to differentiate the meaning of their own statements and to prosecute those with different views.  Open Bolt designs have always been a legality problem, but you do what ever you think the traffic will bare.....

ZE212_ATF_Weaponeer.zip

As you have pointed out, I am no lawyer. I think this will quell all debate.
This is a modified version of what I mailed this afternoon. Does anybody know how long an ATF response takes? Is it a
Fortnight to 90 day thing or a 6 to 9 months thing?

Thanks,
Tanner Frisby

Tanner Frisby wrote; Does anybody know how long an ATF response takes? Is it a Fortnight to 90 day thing or a 6 to 9 months thing?



I like the way you asked that! I have to say that i am proud of you man! You have defiantly taken a step in the right direction with that letter. They may write back and tell you to build it and then send them a sample to inspect. That sometimes happens. It may be a long process, but if you succeed, you will have taken 1 giant leap for ALL OF US!

Typically they will take 90 days, but, if you have not heard from them in 60, call and bug em! Then call them again! Ya just have to do that sometimes. It is hard to say though, they may respond sooner then later. I can not say for sure other then what i have written already.

I have been watching you since your very 1st post. I do not think most here realize how old you are!

You have a ton of potential to go far in this industry.

P.S. I am still in anticipation of your other project! It is gonna be very

By the way, I spent quite a while searching through my forever stamps before I was able to find
A "Freedom" stamp and a "Liberty" stamp. I hope the message gets through.

To my age, which you keep alluding to, I will be 18 in right under 6 months. Can't wait. But then, I'm off to college and
Four to five years without gunsmithing (I doubt it will be an acceptable past time) Maybe I can wait.

Exquisitely,
Tanner Frisby

The only reason that i say anything at all about that, is because most people your age, are playing playstation and jerkin off!

Glad you are able to have a good hobby like this and not get caught up in all the technology that is brainwashing our youth these days!

Finally, after about 6 months, I received a response from BATFE:
µnderstandably, they would like to review my firearm, and pictures sent by mail or email seem not to be sufficient.
Can't wait to obtain their written opinion on this, in case I were ever to be adversely questioned.
(Keep in mind, the diagram was a somewhat crude MS paint illustration, and the letter I sent was in future tense):





Also note:
There is a fair chance UPS round trip shipping is going to cost me more than I put into the gun!
Fairly pissed,

Tanner Frisby

That is awesome that you finally heard back bro! I was wondering about this very thing a few weeks back.

That sucks about the UPS thing costing more then the single shot pistol that won't shoot birds! (My attempt at humor at your expense, but hey, what are friends for?)

Seriously though, before you send it, you could call a friend of mine and talk to him. He has delt with them before on rulings. He could give you some advice. maybe only send in the action and bolt and mag. Keep the barrel and other parts.....IDK. My friend could advise you on how to do it for the best possible chance of success, even if they rule that it is no good the way you have it now, they may tell you to make some changes and it will be ok and send it back. Again, i am not sure, just thinking out loud!

Sometimes they say this is no good and keep it! And send you a letter back telling you why they kept it. Thats why i suggested keeping the barrel and other stuff, but, again, IDK.

Maybe write them a letter, explaining the ruling above and the loading of each round singly, ect. And tell them in the letter you would appreciate the opportunity to make any necessary changes if it is not approved.

Hey Guys I would be willing to throw $5 or$10 to Tanner in a collection to help pay for shipping.
The info he hopes to receive would be of help to us all.
Let me know and i will send asap
Ryche

I appreciate the sentiment, but I think that any money being considered for donation should go to this site instead of me. While I am bitter about the developed impediments, I can cover it myself.

I haven't been here long, but I have seen this site go down because of lack of funding. Losing one of the greatest intellectual meeting places for weapon design would be a big loss, but losing all the information amassed on this site over roughly a decade would be a real tragedy.

I haven't donated much to this site monetarily, but I hope my opinion and information set can be a solid contribution.


To address the issue of FTB not returning my handgun: I would much rather loose the whole firearm in one transaction than not send, say, the barrel and have them return it and tell me I need to reship the complete arm for their consideration, and then for them to confiscate it after extra shipping expenses. I was considering asking them to return as many parts as possible, should they rule against my build, but I think that would start their decision on the wrong foot. I am currently leaning towards shipping it as is, and calling them after the fact if I am ruled against.

Thanks,
Tanner Frisby

Very cool Tanner and on that note i will kick the $10 to the Boss.
Ryche

One thing I would ask them first would be: Since I was trying to find out if such a weapon was legal before building it if I do send you a functional version of what I'm asking about if it is found to be against the law will I be prosecuted for it?


I would get that in writing first so they can't come after you if they deem it an illegal machine gun. As far as the single shot open bolt aspect several years ago I ran across a court case where there was a similar challenge and I'm pretty sure the outcome of the court case was that the court agreed with BATFE in that it was still an open bolt design and therefore illegal, even though it only held one shot. But that was several years ago and I may be wrong (memory ain't what it used to be). Might want to check with the guys over at subguns.com as they would know for sure.

The letter also says "sample". I know people, heck i can give an example; BRP Corp. He sent in 2 pieces welded together, with other pieces, as well as diagrams and explanations of how it all worked together, even though it was NOT all put together, and got approval on the semi MG42.

Had you first letter and drawings also included the receiver and other parts such as the trigger, they may have ruled on it then. I personally doubt that if they do find it is NOT legal, they would waste too much time trying to prosecute you as you have corresponded 1st!

From that stand point, their response IS to submit a "sample" for further evaluation. Basically they are telling you that in order for them to rule on it, they want to see it, which to me is the same as saying go ahead and make it and send it in.

Right?