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MP40 Inspired Build
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  blurrededge

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Posted: October 05 2015 at 11:53pm | IP Logged Quote blurrededge

Here's a photo (from ar15.com) of a cutaway WWII german 9mm case.
you can see how much thicker the casing gets toward the rim, and how much room there is before you get to the actual powder chamber after the primer etc.
The more modern ammunition like this Corbon load
leaves a lot more meat down there.
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  UKBiker

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Posted: October 06 2015 at 4:35pm | IP Logged Quote UKBiker

The photos of the original and yours next to each other really do show what a fantastic job you have done especially given the fact it is the first time you've seen one in the flesh so to speak.

Your build is a work of art and if we had a "build of the year" category I would not hesitate to nominate your MP40.

As for the Kubel build I am a rather fetching shade of Kawasaki green with envy, "What a magnificent pair" As the Bishop said to the Actress.
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  Zuzzy

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Posted: October 08 2015 at 7:00pm | IP Logged Quote Zuzzy

Its known that germans used towards the end of ww2 steel cased ammo in 9x19mm.

What is wrong with that concept, that its not used today (cheaper than brass of course) ?
For example, in AK they use steel cases and they work ok.

Why not use it in pistol rounds also?
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  blurrededge

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Posted: October 08 2015 at 7:11pm | IP Logged Quote blurrededge

Steel case pistol ammunition is available.

Brass has the advantages over steel of easier formability, better heat absorbtion, corrosion resistance, spring back during ignition etc.

A few years ago I heard the US military was toying with the idea of stainless steel cases to save weight, as well as titanium receivers on the M240 and M249.
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  vintagemx0

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Posted: October 08 2015 at 7:45pm | IP Logged Quote vintagemx0

If I wanted to SBR this thing, is it a big deal since I built the gun? I looked at the BATF application and it asks for make and model. Will it be problematic since I built the gun? I keep thinking that $200 would be well spent if it allowed me to install a folding stock.

-Ken
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  Inkfideltattoo

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Posted: October 08 2015 at 9:27pm | IP Logged Quote Inkfideltattoo

Do you have a trust and doing the online form? Or are you doing it the old paper way? For the online form you can select other as the manufacturer and make up a model name. In addition to putting a serial number on it for registration purposes you'll have to get it engraved with your name, city and state - a requirement for all SBR's
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  KernelKrink

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Posted: October 08 2015 at 10:15pm | IP Logged Quote KernelKrink

vintagemx0 wrote:
If I wanted to SBR this thing, is it a big deal since I built the gun? I looked at the BATF application and it asks for make and model. Will it be problematic since I built the gun? I keep thinking that $200 would be well spent if it allowed me to install a folding stock.

-Ken


Not an issue, you can make an NFA gun from scratch or modify an existing one. Only difference in filling out the paperwork is you make up your own model designation and serial number instead of using the existing ones.

If you want the stock functional, it needs the SBR registration. OTOH, if you just want the looks, welding it in the closed position would let it retain it's pistol status.
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  backbencher

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Posted: October 09 2015 at 2:07am | IP Logged Quote backbencher

blurrededge wrote:
Steel case pistol ammunition is available.

Brass has the advantages over steel of easier formability, better heat absorbtion, corrosion resistance, spring back during ignition etc.

A few years ago I heard the US military was toying with the idea of stainless steel cases to save weight, as well as titanium receivers on the M240 and M249.


9x18mm ammo is widely available w/ a steel case, I believe. If you live in the SE US, you can get Privi Partisan steel case from your local Academy as their Monarch brand in 9x18, 9x19, & .45" ACP.

I believe the US military did purchase some titanium M240's; don't think the M249 made it, however.
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  blurrededge

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Posted: October 09 2015 at 7:14am | IP Logged Quote blurrededge

Regarding registering your build as an SBR, I would consider an NFA Trust if I were going to do it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_Trust
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  vintagemx0

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Posted: October 09 2015 at 8:42pm | IP Logged Quote vintagemx0

Thanks. 'Did some reading about going SBR and lost all interest. You can't cross state lines, move, etc without giving big brother several months notice... and I'll need a lawyer for about another $500 just to get started. Blah. Just not that interested any more.
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  UKBiker

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Posted: October 10 2015 at 1:00pm | IP Logged Quote UKBiker

Why not fabricate a folding "Arm brace" for it a slightly wider version of the original folding stock but with the bottom of the loop removed to fit over your arm?

Something akin to the Sig brace but more aesthetically in tune with the MP40 look would get around the SBR issue without making the thing look wrong
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  Inkfideltattoo

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Posted: October 10 2015 at 4:19pm | IP Logged Quote Inkfideltattoo

i think you would get effed in the A by the Feds, it would be very hard to make an arm brace that would not be a 'buttstock' in their eyes, let alone aesthetically pleasing for this build
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  backbencher

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Posted: October 11 2015 at 4:27pm | IP Logged Quote backbencher

Biker, sadly our authorities we have appointed to regulate such things have reversed their previous rulings on the SIG arm brace and have threatened us w/ fines & imprisonment if we dare intentionally shoulder the thing.

The NFA stuff is a pain in the rear, but I paid $100 to my lawyer (.mil discount), $200 for the SBR stamp, and if I need to take it out of the state, I file a form - IF I'm taking it out of the state in an SBR configuration.
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  vintagemx0

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Posted: October 11 2015 at 5:20pm | IP Logged Quote vintagemx0

Thanks for the advice guys. As nice as an SBR would be, this build has only cost me $150 in parts and some scrap steel. I really don't mind waiting the year or so it takes to get the green light from the feds, but the whole paperwork "soup nazi" part is a complete turn-off for me.

I bought a couple of KP44 kits - I think I'll do one as a "long barrel" carbine (with folding stock). I though about a normal KP44 with a welded folding stock, but I imagine that merely possessing the parts before it is done is a violation, so I'll probably throw that stock in the nearest river.

-Ken
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  backbencher

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Posted: October 12 2015 at 10:11am | IP Logged Quote backbencher

No, no need to throw the stock away unless you have a finished receiver already that stock will fit. Just order the bbl and have it in hand before the receiver has the stock fitments or is a firearm.
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  KernelKrink

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Posted: October 12 2015 at 11:46am | IP Logged Quote KernelKrink

No need to get rid of a stock, just store the stock with the long bbl rifle. That way it's a "spare part" for the rifle, not for the handgun. SCOTUS ruled in the TC decision that if a "group of parts" could be assembled in both a legal and illegal way (unregistered SBR) then the .GOV had to assume, absent any proof the firearm was actually assembled in an illegal config, that the intention of the owner was to only assemble in a legal way. Stored with a rifle, it is a spare part. Stored with a handgun, that might imply intent.

 

Think about all those AR15 handguns out there, most folks with them also own AR15 rifles. Popping two pins and swapping uppers is a heck of a lot easier than installing a KP44 stock.

 

Or weld up the stock before you weld the repair section to the front end of the original receiver.

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  OldCoot

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Posted: October 18 2015 at 5:07pm | IP Logged Quote OldCoot

Given recent changes in makeup of SCOTUS and the typical statist disregard for law if it interferes with their 'feelings', I'd not put a great deal of trust in that interpretation staying current much longer.
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  vintagemx0

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Posted: October 26 2015 at 9:42pm | IP Logged Quote vintagemx0

I've just begun the the finish on this build which is magnetite by a process called "rust bluing". Essentially, this process calls for promoting common rust on the parts and then boiling them in water in order to chemically change the common red rust (FE203) to a black rust (FE3O4). This leaves a black oxide finish on the final product that is very durable.

I have done this once before on a previous build and I really like the results. I have seen some discussion about it on this forum as well as others, but it seems that not too many people use this process. I wanted to present my experience here in order to help others that may be contemplating this approach and hopefully to dis spell any apprehensions. This really is not a complicated process.

In a nutshell, the process is as follows;
1. This process only works on ferrous (rust-able) metal.
2. The metal is cleaned and de-greased
3. The metal is applied with a corrosive solution and placed in a high humidity chamber to promote corrosion in the form of ordinary rust.
4. The parts are boiled in distilled water in order to create a chemical reaction whereby the common red rust is transformed into another oxide of iron that is black in color.
5. The resulting black oxide is "carded", whereby the bulk of the black oxide that was just created is removed to leave behind the only the black oxides that are tightly bonded with the base metal.
6. The process is repeeted (starting with step 3 above) allowing the base black oxide bonded with metal to build-up. This process may be required for 8 to 15 cycles until the end finish is to your satisfaction.

First, let me just say that this is a (calendar) time-consuming process. However, the amount of time that you actually spend on this process is not too great. Figure on a day to get everything started, and then about one hour a day to process. So, one day of set-up and one hour a day times 12 days equals about 2-1/2 days of your actual time spent working. The results are well worth it. A nice dark Black/Blue finish that is VERY durable and long-lasting.

For this process, you will need the following;

1 Patience. This is a somewhat long process where you are only working in short stints over the course of about 1-1/2 weeks.
2. Fresh (clean) acetone to clean your parts .
3. A solution to apply to your parts to promote a layer of rust. I used a mixture o 1/3 part ferric chloride, 1/3 part distilled water, 1/3 part denatured alcohol. The only caustic ingredient here is the ferric chloride that is diluted with the other two ingredients. The alcohol is to help it flash-dry a little quicker.
4. A box of nitrile disposable gloves to handle your parts in a clean manner.
5. A "sweat box" to promote the rusting process. I just used a cardboard box with old t-shirts draping over the opening.
6. A metal container to boil your parts in.
7. 000 or 0000 steel wool to card the parts after each boil.
8. Clean rags for various cleaning activities during the process.
9. Applicator brush for putting the rust promoting solution on the larger parts. I prefer the little foam brushes.
10. Be open with your wife so she understands what you are doing on her stove!


1 Final sanding of small parts


2 Final sanding of Large Parts. Give your parts the last once-over to remove scratches.


3 Acetone wash of small parts. Thoroughly decrease all parts. Use fresh cloths and fresh acetone a couple of times to be sure all grease has moved-on. Only handle from this point forward with the rubber gloves.


4 Acetone wash of large parts. I poured acetone over parts that had over-lapping sheet metal to help flush out any grease.


5 Keep Clean in baggies. If you are not going to do anything right away with them, protect your clean parts.


6 This is what my rust solution looks like. The recipe I gave above is just based on what I had on hand. Look on internet and you will find just as many recipes as people doing this. Basically, anything that will promote rust will work. Vinegar with salt and water, or a diluted acid - I bet 1/2 muratic acis to 1/4 vinegar and 1/4 denatured alcohol would work nicely. Just be aware of any hazards associated with what you're using.


7 Small parts sweat box. Just a cardboard box. I'm not hanging parts anymore, just sitting in the bottom. Seems to be fine.


8 Large parts sweat box made from a recycle bin. No need to go fancy.


9 Small parts first rusting. Here are what my small parts looked like after the first rusting.


10 Small parts first boil. Yummy


11 Small parts after first boil. What did you expect? At least another 6 or 7 cycles before they may be done.


12 Small parts after first carding. The black oxide that is on there after boiling is kind of thick and "velvety" You probably remove about 90 plus percent of this when you scrub with the steel wool. What remains however is tightly bonded to the steel. Subsequent cycles build on this base.


So, I'm just getting started. I'm going to try to boil and card once each night, so perhaps in about a week and a half I'll be done. My large parts came out really blotchy and some areas were still very "white". Probably due to inferior cleaning. However, this will be remedied after repeated cycles as the carding process will clean-off the steel. I went ahead and wiped with acetone again anyway before applying the second cycle of rust solution.

This really is a simple process. I would stress to others the following:

1) Keep everything very clean (Handle only with clean gloves. Buy a big box of disposables and through away after each use.

2) Don't apply too much solution or try to rub it in. Just dip the foam brush in the solution, wipe off excess, and apply in one continuous stroke, with each stroke side-by-side. If you miss a little spot, DON'T try to touch it up. You'll catch-up with it on the following cycles. If you rub the wet solution, it will try to strip-off the base you already have down and make a much bigger problem. Rest assured, it will all eventually blend and match if you build-up very light coats. If you brush a part and notice when you are sitting it down in the sweat box that it has already dried, that is OK. It will do it's voodoo.

3) Use bottled DISTILLED water. Learned my lesson last time. I was using tap water and was not very happy after the 5th cycle. Just wasn't building-up at all. I bought some distilled water and WOW! First cycle with that and the difference was dramatic. I'm no chemist, but it must have to due with available ions or something.

I'll post some progress pics over the next week.

-Ken
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  backbencher

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Posted: October 27 2015 at 7:44am | IP Logged Quote backbencher

Fascinating to see the rust bluing process in action.
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  littleviking

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Posted: October 27 2015 at 10:26am | IP Logged Quote littleviking

Any reason for Rust bluing rather then traditional?

just something fun you wanted to try or is it more durable then the bake on bluing?
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