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MP44 Inspired Build
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  vintagemx0

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Posted: November 01 2015 at 10:59pm | IP Logged Quote vintagemx0

I know this is going to be a tough one, but I have the itch to build something pursuant to an MP44. I don't want to chamber the original kurz round and I don't want to go higher power like a 7.62 x 39. So, I was thinking 9mm and then decided on 7.62 x 25 simply because the rounds are tapered and a curved magazine can be used. not mention they are a little hotter than a Luger 9mm. Here's a quick and dirty sketch that I will build-upon and use as the basis for my design moving forward.



Either AR or AK on the FCG- not decided yet. I have a couple of KP44 bolts. Does anyone know if they would work with a Tokarev round?

Lots of sheet metal, ribs, and funky compound curves. This will be a challenge that will probably take me some time. Looking forward to beginning before too long. Hopefully I'll be taking this out for a range report this next summer.

-Ken
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  justin22885

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Posted: November 02 2015 at 1:58am | IP Logged Quote justin22885

doesnt it seem like youre going through a lot of work just to make a blowback weapon?
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  vintagemx0

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Posted: November 02 2015 at 8:39am | IP Logged Quote vintagemx0

When you put it like that, it seems to me like building any weapon is a lot of work just to be building a weapon. Isn't that the point here? I thought this forum was based upon building - not necessarily short cuts or easy choices. It's all about the build - at least is to me. It's not like we can sell these things. Some people talk and some people do. I like to do. That's my opinion on subject of "a lot of work". If you're having fun a developing skills, to me it's not work.

Besides, although a locking bolt with higher power would be nice, I'm simply not tooled-up enough or competent enough at the moment to do so.
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  justin22885

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Posted: November 02 2015 at 10:23am | IP Logged Quote justin22885

what im saying is for a blowback without any gas system, you could basically get by with a tune and a trigger group...

hmm, check out the STG 45 sometime.. it has similar aesthetics to the STG 44 but was designed as a delayed blowback with no gas system, so its upper is mostly a tube with an attached magazine well

so start with a tube, shape and weld on your magazine well with a lip on the back you can use to hinge the lower.. probably use a PPS-43 bolt to replace the roller delayed blowback bolt of the STG 45, then make up your lower and stock assembly
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  backbencher

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Posted: November 02 2015 at 10:55am | IP Logged Quote backbencher

A bit of engineering has gone into 7.62x25mm ARs the last few years. If you bored out your stock, you could fit all the internals of an entire Tok AR in there, and then all the rest is facade.

Isn't there a .22" LR STG44 copy coming in from Germany? And surely there are some airsoft versions.

Build a Tok AR, and tune it 'til it runs. Get you an airsoft STG44, and then all you have to do is build a chassis to take the Tok AR internals & slam it in the airsoft shell.

Make your own stock, and you could even bumpfire w/ a light AR trigger.
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  UKBiker

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Posted: November 02 2015 at 1:42pm | IP Logged Quote UKBiker

BB is right there is a .22LR version of the STG44 made by Umarex or similar, the internals are pretty much the same as their MP5 clone and the other .22LR clones they build, they're just wrapped in a glorified airsoft shell.
I have fired the GSG5 and the STG22 both weigh about the same as the originals and are fun little carbines
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  vintagemx0

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Posted: November 02 2015 at 9:30pm | IP Logged Quote vintagemx0

Thanks guys - I appreciate the input. I understand what you're saying justin22885. It does seem wasteful to build a weapon with a useless gas tube. backbencher and UKBiker point-out the the GSG .22 LR models. I'm familiar with those as well. I purchased a GSG AK47 .22 LR about 5 years ago, so I already have a weapon with a facade of a gas tube. However, as I was impressed with most aspects of that rifle, I was not impressed by the really poor front sight block, "barrel", gas block, and gas tube. All plastic or parted aluminum casting and painted tubing. So, I turned my own barrel cover and replaced those parts with real AK parts and it turned-out very nice. Although it is still a poser with a non-functioning gas tube that cost me way more $$ than a real AK would in the first place, it opened my interest into this hobby. (and it really is well-built and fun to shoot).

I should have mentioned in my first post that part of the allure with this build is all of the sheet metal pressings and emulating a likeness of a real article. I like working with steel, and in a sense the modeling of an stg44 in steel is the appeal for me. Having a functioning firearm would fulfill another hobby and make the endeavor worth-while regardless of the caliber or design.

Thanks again all. I am re-considering what avenue to take with round specs.

-Ken
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  justin22885

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Posted: November 02 2015 at 11:51pm | IP Logged Quote justin22885

again, consider going for the STG 45.. it uses sheet metal pressings as well to form the upper receiver tube and magazine well.. no wasteful sections for a gas section either.. its about perfect for what youre looking for.. do me a favor though and keep it "german" and use 7.63 mauser over 7.62x25
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  Zuzzy

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Posted: November 18 2015 at 8:05pm | IP Logged Quote Zuzzy

There are two variants of "stg 45", or gerat 06 and 06H, latter is made from 2 halves of stamped steel welded together (further simplified), and first one uses removable trigger pack, just like in stg44. Recreating the same exact 2 halves method I suppose would be impossible for homebuilder.

Anyway, discussion and recommendations are stupid, since he decided to make stg44, not "stg45",
but given the creativity and skills of this forumite, I wouldnt be surprised that the tries to make that too, after he made sucessfully stg44 replica.

We here will follow this with great interest.
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Posted: November 18 2015 at 8:19pm | IP Logged Quote Zuzzy

Zuzzy wrote:
Recreating the same exact 2 halves method I suppose would be impossible for homebuilder.


Or, apparently, not so !!!

http://ww2aa.proboards.com/thread/10716/gerat-06h-stg45m-scr atch-build
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  justin22885

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Posted: November 18 2015 at 8:44pm | IP Logged Quote justin22885

you wouldnt even need to go the two halves method.. thats fine and dandy for a large factory with 50 ton presses.. the kind of which are supplying the arms for a major military as home builders, other techniques become cheaper and more available to get roughly the same finished product

i liken it how most guns are hot blued, which is a process that is dirt cheap on consistent on the long scale, but inferior to a rust blue which can be done much easier at home.. what works for a big factory probably wont work for us

the way id do it, small-scale shop style is looking at the STG 45, its basically a big round tube about 1.5" in diameter, once you decide on the caliber and magazines you want, weld the magazine well to the receiver tube, design a bolt that can function with the HK G3 trigger group assembly, use an HK trigger group, modify the HK back plate assembly (that slips over the back of the receiver and holds it all together)

if the OP is willing to go this route and needs any assistance designing any of the components, id be willing to help him out
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  vintagemx0

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Posted: November 18 2015 at 9:38pm | IP Logged Quote vintagemx0

No, but thanks for the offer. Like Zuzzy pointed-out, this thread is about me attempting to build something closely resembling an stg44 - not a '45.

I would be interested in looking at some of your builds. 'Mind posting a few links for my viewing pleasure? Sorry, I can't figure out how to search by poster....

-Ken
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Posted: November 18 2015 at 9:50pm | IP Logged Quote justin22885

i dont have the tools yet to begin building prototypes, so for the time being im still designing stuff in CAD, trying to find something perfect.. i'll be making videos to put on youtube when it comes time to build and test
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  backbencher

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Posted: November 19 2015 at 9:20am | IP Logged Quote backbencher

Zuzzy wrote:

Zuzzy wrote:
Recreating the same exact 2 halves method I suppose would be impossible for homebuilder.


Or, apparently, not so !!! http://ww2aa.proboards.com/thread/10716/gerat-06h-stg45m-scr atch-build


http://ww2aa.proboards.com/thread/10716/gerat-06h-stg45m-scr atch-build
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  Zuzzy

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Posted: November 19 2015 at 12:45pm | IP Logged Quote Zuzzy

justin22885 wrote:
i dont have the tools yet to begin building prototypes, so for the time being im still designing stuff in CAD, trying to find something perfect.. i'll be making videos to put on youtube when it comes time to build and test


You do know that designing something virtually and trying to build it/make it work are sometimes two very different things ?

Even guys like Chuck from Gun Lab who has ton of experience both theoretical and practical, often end up with a results not being the same in CAD and when machined...
And we're speaking here about fully equipped shop level (they have), not even mentioning the cases where you are limited in materials and even basic tools...

Designing something on the CAD is ok, but doing only that for a long time, I suppose one is in danger to end up way more frustrated that none of these brilliant designes ever left the table, then when somebody starts to build a few projects from scratch and never ends finishing them all (which is often the case, as some builds are tweaked and upgraded as the builder "grows" and gains new experience, tools, ideas and materials).
 
Building is often frustrating but also rewarding when you come up with an idea to bypass the obstacle that halted you, and sometimes it takes few months or even more to do that.

If we all waited for the perfect tools and machines to appear in our makeshift shops, nothing would ever be made,
so my advice is - stop "cadding" and start building something, even if that is simple hacksaw and files work, put in a little elbow grease, it would give you the new perspective and point you in the right direction.
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  justin22885

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Posted: November 19 2015 at 3:43pm | IP Logged Quote justin22885

Zuzzy wrote:
justin22885 wrote:
i dont have the tools yet to begin building prototypes, so for the time being im still designing stuff in CAD, trying to find something perfect.. i'll be making videos to put on youtube when it comes time to build and test


You do know that designing something virtually and trying to build it/make it work are sometimes two very different things ?

Even guys like Chuck from Gun Lab who has ton of experience both theoretical and practical, often end up with a results not being the same in CAD and when machined...
And we're speaking here about fully equipped shop level (they have), not even mentioning the cases where you are limited in materials and even basic tools...

Designing something on the CAD is ok, but doing only that for a long time, I suppose one is in danger to end up way more frustrated that none of these brilliant designes ever left the table, then when somebody starts to build a few projects from scratch and never ends finishing them all (which is often the case, as some builds are tweaked and upgraded as the builder "grows" and gains new experience, tools, ideas and materials).
 
Building is often frustrating but also rewarding when you come up with an idea to bypass the obstacle that halted you, and sometimes it takes few months or even more to do that.

If we all waited for the perfect tools and machines to appear in our makeshift shops, nothing would ever be made,
so my advice is - stop "cadding" and start building something, even if that is simple hacksaw and files work, put in a little elbow grease, it would give you the new perspective and point you in the right direction.


ive built guns before.. so yeah, probably should have asked me about that first, ive simply quit wasting my time on other peoples junk to begin working on my own, because anything you can build based on designs that are already out there is something that was designed with multi million dollar tools in mind and like i said earlier, whats easiest and whats best for them, is not always whats easiest and best for us

to give an example, the AKM rifle people claim is incredibly simple and cheap to make.. not so much.. buying parts kit from a broke eastern european country and putting it together on a new receiver.. thats cheap, but when it comes to machining out the bolt carrier group, trunnions, etc in high volumes, then you start talking huge automated machinery again

its so much easier to design something for a major manufacturer who has these tools as their disposal, its MUCH harder to design something using only the tools a small garage workshop would have at its disposal and its even more difficult to come up with something a home workshop can produce.. but thats the ultimate goal.. to defeat gun control by making stuff so simple, so inexpensive, anyone, anywhere can make it out of nothing
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  vintagemx0

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Posted: November 19 2015 at 8:14pm | IP Logged Quote vintagemx0

Zuzzy is 100% right and what he says is my experience. CAD is a great tool for the home hobbiest to think something through, but when it comes time to physically build, the CAD drawings are not a great aid because of accuracy , precision, and capability issues.

Justin2285- I don't think Zuzzy is disrespecting you in any way so please don't take it as such. What he says is excellent advice for anyone. I must say, however, I do not share your "ultimate goal". I just want build something of interest to me in my garage and share my experience with any persons who have similar interest. So, please, if you want to continue discussing motives and efficiencies related to home-built firearms, start a new thread and don't de-rail my thread with this. No disrespect. I'm pretty impressed with the quantity of ideas you've expressed on this forum and I do look forward to tuning-in to your first build that you'll post here.

-ken
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Posted: November 19 2015 at 8:30pm | IP Logged Quote vintagemx0

WOW   

That dude building that '45 in the link above has serious skills!



-ken
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Posted: November 19 2015 at 8:48pm | IP Logged Quote justin22885

vintagemx0 wrote:
Zuzzy is 100% right and what he says is my experience. CAD is a great tool for the home hobbiest to think something through, but when it comes time to physically build, the CAD drawings are not a great aid because of accuracy , precision, and capability issues.

Justin2285- I don't think Zuzzy is disrespecting you in any way so please don't take it as such. What he says is excellent advice for anyone. I must say, however, I do not share your "ultimate goal". I just want build something of interest to me in my garage and share my experience with any persons who have similar interest. So, please, if you want to continue discussing motives and efficiencies related to home-built firearms, start a new thread and don't de-rail my thread with this. No disrespect. I'm pretty impressed with the quantity of ideas you've expressed on this forum and I do look forward to tuning-in to your first build that you'll post here.

-ken


i was just responding to a comment made to me that could have been made in PM, thats all

what i say about the techniques and tools available to people on a small scale is quite relevant though.. what worked well for a massive factory in 1944 germany for the purpose of mass production to supply a desperate army is not necessarily the best way to go about making the same component in a garage in 2015 america to supply a single person

so the advice is not to get hung up on the exact methods of production the germans used 70 years ago, there are probably better ways to go about it
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Posted: November 19 2015 at 9:37pm | IP Logged Quote vintagemx0

You're understood and it's good. I used to build prototypes in an R&D lab for a stove manufacturer and we used to have a saying..."You can build one of anything." This meant, of course, meaning that re-producing on a production basis is yet another thing. I'm only planning on building one of these, so i very simply only need to consider my known ability, my tooling, my confidence in the perceived challenge, and the expectation that will not end up perfect. Nothing I have ever built has ended-up perfect, and I think that is normal. You still pick-up skills and experience that lend themselves to the next project you take on. I never once had any hang-ups with how the krauts had to manage it back in '44. I only want to make a one-off for my own self interest. You mentioned that you were going to chronicle your prototype on here when you amass your tooling. The word "prototype" suggests that you are planning to develop a production model. I suppose that is the reason you stated your POV on my thread. I don't know.... I simply like to putz in my garage and build one - offs of things that interest me as a hobby.

-ken
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