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MP44 Inspired Build
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  vintagemx0

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Posted: August 21 2016 at 12:31pm | IP Logged Quote vintagemx0

I had a bristle from a wire brush stick in my cheek once just below my eye. It didn't hurt, but when I pulled it out I was shocked at how deep it went in. Got me thinking...

Zuzzy - I did consider the G3 FCG, but I already had US made AK parts and they worked quite easily and I thought it would be a plus for 922(r). I know what you mean about the HM builds. They look like first class craftsmanship, but some of the details seem quite a bit "off" where they easily could have been more correct.

UKBiker - I'm planning on cold bluing for now. I can always take it down later for rust bluing if I want to "improve" it later. I have an AK that took the clod bluing very well after first cleaning, then oven baking, and re-cleaning. All of the original Stg 44s I have seen photos of look a little washed out and that would be my preference. I think your right about getting weird results in weld zones, so we'll see. I really don't like the idea of painting it.

'Been busy of late due to my father-in-law moving in with us, but I hope to do some more work soon.
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  UKBiker

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Posted: August 21 2016 at 5:36pm | IP Logged Quote UKBiker

Those rotary wire brushes are lethal, especially the bench grinder mounted ones, I saw an apron that had been grabbed by one, the workpiece started getting hot and he decided to hold it in his apron with the predictable consequences, luckily he was uninjured and it just ripped it off him, snapping the loop over his head rather than pulling him into it, but it was a sobering lesson.
I hate using them, I have a couple that mount onto a small 4 inch grinder, which are really effective, but I'm always wary of them and try to use a full face shield rather just safety glasses or goggles. I have a welding helmet that doubles as a face shield, so I always use that with anything bigger than the little ones that mount in a pistol drill.
I know from previous experience when I have had surface treatments done on parts that have been repaired with welding it can come out strange, I had some anodising done after some alloy welding and whether the rods were not the same grade or something, the anodise came out with a sort of sunken finish, i had similar with a zinc passivate treatment where it had been weld repaired.

I think you're right going with the washed out aged look to it, it will capture the feel of it.
I think you've done a cracking job with it so far, I'm rather envious of both your abilities and the inventive ways you overcome issues and of the fact that you are allowed to build it where you live.
It will go well with the MP40 and the Kubelwagen hanging above the mantlepiece

Any thoughts on what you're going to build next? What about an FG42
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  blurrededge

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Posted: August 21 2016 at 6:01pm | IP Logged Quote blurrededge

a friend of mine was worried about how the bluing on his MG42 would look where all the receiver and barrel jackets welds were, but after sandblasting everything and buffing with some light abrasive pads, the hot-salt bluing covered the entire thing evenly... no telling it was welded back together.
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  cabal2600

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Posted: August 22 2016 at 7:01pm | IP Logged Quote cabal2600

FG42 is very desirable project,the first model is very rare which is also pain in ass to accomplish..
The 2nd and third models both sheet metal stamped and spot welded,only barrel trunion or block get milled and drilled rest typical sheet metal stamping....

However there is one problem with all 3 known variations of FG42's,the magazines are not interchangeable between them,every single model have individual magazines which make those magazines alone as collectable item.....

The close matching clips for each and every model made by Shoei gun model company,the only component it advised to change is follower spring,everything else should fit and work as clock...

Unfortunately ever science FG42 so desirable even as model gun those magazines is super rare as well and now Shoei getting out of stock from those even STG44 magazines....

Logical concept construction of stamping dies,this is how magazine body shell formed,pre formed sheet placed between dies than get pressed by hydraulic press until everything get complete,result would be a complete magazine halfs which would required tig welder for final completion....

It is not hard to do anything,hard part is obtaining necessary materials and machinery but skills never change for those who know how to use lathe,milling machine,drill press,angle grinder,dremel,atc.....

Those are main basic tools and machines required for build,rebuild,start new projects and to complete assembly...

On normal levels small mini lathe and milling machine is more than enough,but if anyone deal with rifles or other long barreled firearms than longer lathe required....
Pistols,revolvers and smg's all have not too long size barrel...
Rifles,assault rifles and mg's have longer barrel size and need long sized lathes for cutting,turning and countering shape of barrels...

By start fresh barrel you need a barrel blank which is heavy blank of rolled steel made out of 4140 or 4150 grade of molly steel,next you need to properly center and align blank in lathe followed by steady rest and follow rest to make sure barrel blank not wobble ..
By drilling hole in blank required special upgraded attachment at rear stock panel,special deep drilling bit installs and large amount of cooling oil get passed to bit so it won't overheat and break....

After drilling rimming process required,channel reamer used to smooth barrel,second pilot reamer and finaly chamber reamer used to create barrel chamber,after that followed tools requires:
adjustable scrape,multi attachment scrape,probably broach,rifling button...

Those are all different rifling tools and depands what type of barrel get rifled,broaches usualy most used at handgun barrels and only works with 2 pass and exit insert..
Broach is spins and inserts into barrel blank than exits and numerous amount of oil used for rifling production...

Scrapes are all different,there is 3 types of scrapes are exist,2 types have adjustable insert tips while third type of scrape is adjustable disk types which depand on short or long size barrels to be used on..
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  vintagemx0

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Posted: August 22 2016 at 9:59pm | IP Logged Quote vintagemx0

'Kinda late in the game to be asking, but does anyone see any legal ramifications with my build? For instance, since this is a custom one-off, I really doubt that any original stg 44 inner parts would fit or function, but am I still responsible for adding a denial bar? I live in Oregon and my local laws are no different than federal, but am I over-looking any BATF judgments that could possibly affect this build?

-Ken
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  bikergunnut

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Posted: August 22 2016 at 10:25pm | IP Logged Quote bikergunnut

If an original bolt will fit you would probably need a denial of some kind.
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  vintagemx0

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Posted: August 22 2016 at 10:47pm | IP Logged Quote vintagemx0

It may be possible that an original bolt itself would fit, but not the carrier and there would be no place for the bolt to tilt and lock. The bolt carrier would definitely not fit without major modification of the receiver and gas tube and porting of the barrel. Do you feel denial of some sort may still be a wise thing?
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  bikergunnut

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Posted: August 22 2016 at 11:10pm | IP Logged Quote bikergunnut

Shouldn't be a problem.
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  vintagemx0

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Posted: August 28 2016 at 1:44am | IP Logged Quote vintagemx0

I got a little done today on the FCG assembly.

Here's a form for hammer forming the ribs on the right side...



I just used pieces of thick stock to hammer the ribs...



Here's the crude result. For the rounds, I used a suitable size socket...



Still in the rough - Here's the right side...



and the left side...



I'm going to try to improve some of the ribs by placing them back in the form and tapping with a rod inserted in the rib. I'm also going to weld some stainless discs into the round protrusions to beef-up the hammer and trigger pin rests, then trim some more and perimeter weld to the housing. Then grind and blend.

-Ken
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  backbencher

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Posted: August 28 2016 at 10:10am | IP Logged Quote backbencher

Truly, you are an artist.
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  cabal2600

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Posted: August 28 2016 at 10:07pm | IP Logged Quote cabal2600

Modifying original would be even simpler and better option,first you trying cut holes than add grooves and scetches..
I tried do same before until my patience was broken and I bought real STG44 lower housing,rusty but intact with all parts..
Only thing was need cleaning,patching some areas from rust and still need replacement of springs...
Mechanicly trigger housing solid and if not 100% 89-92% fully functional....
Problem involves axle pins for trigger,sear,hammer and other parts like retaining clips...
Barrel 100% original WW2 intact and not abused,rifling is still sharp,if it ever was used at war not show very intensified use..
Finding intact WW2 STG44 barrel is a mission,just like MP40 barrel as well....
True artifacts,smaller parts like dust cover or rear sight assembly is another mission impossible especially at low prices,go figures....
Funny to say but many STG44 parts could be ordered from Europe in almost new condition,dust covers seems like never was waffen amthed and manufactured by third party..
Everything else usualy marked like main system housing,barrel,trigger housing,end cap,gas tube,bolt and bolt carrier even gas piston and cocking handle those parts are Waffen Amthed which means they passed factory and ordnance inspection....

My STG44 is nothing but a parts set,I never was serious into assemble and tune up everything into complete STG..
However one thing STG44 can promise is use of powerful rounds,the tilting bolt mechanism offers secure locking during fire unlike other rifles or smg's perhaps....

Funny to say but first was ZB26-30/Bren than STG44 appear,after STG44 SKS appear than in little while Japanese Type 64 which all of them operating by tilting bolt mechanism..
The SKS is also very trusted carabine in combat,it self loading and very easy to use however it could be upgraded to become assault rifle and even machine gun by adding bipod and snail magazine that holds 64 or 85 rounds light weight and very trusted.....

Unlike AK47 or AKM SKS bolt would hold open on last fired round which gives warning for reload,the stripper clips is not one of my favorite,unlike it predecessor SVT40 which have removable magazine SKS have permanent magazine and standartly stripper clips however now there variation of removable magazines that fits into SKS.
Every firearm have it's unique historical record while others become simply forgottenned ..
FG42 among with MG42 feeding was played important role in development of M60 machine gun,original FG42 super rare especially first model with metal stock assembly....

Second and third final models of FG42 was sheet metal stamped from 2 halfs and spot welded,only barrel trunion or block inserted and welded in as well assembling one complete housing,Germans was addicted at sheet metal stamped guns this however was decreased production of complicated milled type of firearms....
Things like HK G3/33,MP5 and Cetme housings start life in form of flats than pressed into form of housing also ones again barrel trunion or block pressed in and spot welded...
Cheap,simple and obviously reliable in use..
Milled housings first begin life in form of forging that roughly shaped in it's form,than milling operations would take place and at the end housings mostly get hardened by chemical compound known as Doureferrite Catterfluse or thermo hardened in machine oil or mineral oil..
However if hardening certain parts temperature of heating must not reach limits othervise hardened part neather become fragile and break or too soft which would band...
The good example of such over hardening G43 bolt carrier which neather cracks on side of walls which is critical or it's nose that engages firing pin housing during cocking operations....

The nose is not very hard part to repair but cracked walls is another thing that not worth it.....
Sometimes G43 housings also cracks where barrel get insert,this cost on functionality and wear of bolt mechanism...
Particular failure could be repaired by professional,this is something that not easy quest to say..
Copper inserts required for such task,widening of spot where push rod fits also necessary to complete welding correctly...
After crack along barrel inserting area repaired than push rod area get carefuly reweld as well than reshaped..
This is something that I would not describe easy procedure,I done that myself and can tell it not easy but it was done.....
By send housing for repair service is waste of time,they would tell you a donor housing required for reweld barrel area..
I read that one company who manufacture replacement parts like gas piston assembly was do such repair,they cutted down rear sight area just to do a rewelding which was a very large waste of money for one owner of G43,all those costic unnecessary cutting could be avoided if push rod area would be grinded and exposed,fortunately in my case crack didn't went any further than push rod area,first I measured everything before grinding and even made replication of plastic molding so it reassembles original dimensions...
Than I use dremel and tungsten burrs to remove everything that was in my way until I reweld by using copper tube in barrel hole area and than I used small plating where push rod goes into,I reweld that area and grind everything as is so at the end push rod insert and moves correctly just like before plus I need a good G43 barrel now...

Honestly speaking I bought G43 barrel but some stupid idiot grind and widen chamber area at half which result round to wabble ..
I need a donor chamber for G43 in order to repair half of barrel chamber...
On other end the barrel I bought rifling in near mint condition and most unused,barrel in very nice clean condition with 3 Waffen Amths in different areas and end is threaded as I know it AC43 so as my housing AC43 marked....
WaA359 Walther Maschinen Fabrik at Zhella Mellise...
This is walther factory manufactured very rare threaded barrel as I read g43 book Hitler's Garand's...

G43 is very rare rifle science it was manufactured in very small numbers,lesser than STG44.....
As we speak FG42 even more rare to find even it was made in larger numbers than G43 itself.....

G43 have exact gas mechanism like on SVT40,it all true and I see an SVT40 rifle from one of my friend's.
He like SVT40 but I prefer G43 instead science it less sensitive to malufanctions unlike SVT40 have....
Becouse of 8mm mauser round you can have shorter barrel but same distance shot just like SVD dragunov,Dragunov range is 2000 meters with scope PSO-1 and about 1000 meters without scope...
G43 have maximum range with correct scope from 1200-1600 meters but with ZF4 that not possible,ZF4 maximum range is 850 meters zoom,adopting and modifying PSO-1 that would do trick....

The 8mm Mauser round consider most powerful round ever made and way stronger than Japanese 7.7mm round...
lets face nato caliber 7,62x51mm,soviet or now Russian caliber 7,62x54mm and Mauser caliber is 7,92x57mm which is triple amount of propellant than Russian caliber and far more exeeds than nato caliber..
Back at Poland many war veterans who was injured by this round during WW2 didn't live very long,injuries by 8mm caliber is very deadly and any muscular or bone area hitted by such bullet very costic and fatal....
Another very costic part that propellant of 8mm mauser corrosive which creates copper sulphite or nitrate poisoning...
Corrosive propellants are very dangerous couse after firing some build up ofrom gasses erodes barrel interior unless barrel get cleaned constantly despites of chrome lining...
Same gas deposits violently reacts with fired bullet,this affect copper more than lead,copper turns into salt almost same color as battery contacts on cable and particular become copper nitrate or sulphate which poisoning blood.....

Copper sulphate very corrosive salt,it reacts violently with small cuts but used as agricultural pest regulation in mix with water....
Also copper suplhate and nitrate used in pyrotechnics as well to create yellow and green color sparks in proportional mixture with barium nitrate or chlorate...

Modern propellant or gun powder made from cellulose nitrated by nitric acid and than mixed with sulphuric acid which become nitrocellulose or Pyroxeline which than mixed and filtered through distilled water/dried and coated by graphite powder than shaped,in order to remove corrosive affects of powder it get passed through alchohol to remove corrosiveness and made it more stable which result creation powder number 2 for handguns,powder number 3 for shotguns and special powders for more powerful handguns....

In artillery nitrocellulose mixed on behalf with nitroglycerine as well which forms Cordite and Ballistite powders for artillery and rockets that operates by solid fuel..
Those type of powders very unstable when exposed to moisture,this cost Cordite become very unstable and most explosive than powder...
Those types of powder used in naval artillery cannons and other heavy caliber howitzers...

MLRS rockets also equipped with particular powders,more likely Ballistite powder which differ by ammounts between nitrocellulose and nitroglycerine....

This is standart solid fuel that used still today,nothing changed much science it's first production of WW2 rockets like Katyusha or German Nebelwarfer than after WW2 MLRS..
Still from entire retrospectives Artillery cannons plays more role than MLRS,ironicly but fact...

There is soo many guns and all types of weapon emplacemants that enough to finish world population alone despites nuclear,chemical or biological warfare..
Unfortunately human civilization had made lot of deadly toys more than anything else useful...


Today it's nuclear and tomorrow it could be energy weapon which would become next step of evolution but never in positive ways,only for destruction..
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  Zuzzy

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Posted: August 28 2016 at 11:27pm | IP Logged Quote Zuzzy

Cabal, you are very knowledgeable,
but lot of stuff you write here is totally offtopic (MLRS ??),
and has a potential to derail this, so far very tight and good thread - about building/replicating the stg 44...
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  UKBiker

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Posted: August 29 2016 at 5:49pm | IP Logged Quote UKBiker

Are you using a hydraulic press or just a hammer to push the sheet into the form plate?
Your results from such a simple set up are fantastic, did you think about making a male and female form and using your shop vice, it would give you a better amount of control over the depth.
The whole project is coming together really well Ken, you've raised the bar hugely when it comes to what can be achieved with minimum tools, and volumes of ingenuity.

I look for this build first whenever I log in to the forum
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  vintagemx0

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Posted: August 29 2016 at 9:04pm | IP Logged Quote vintagemx0

Zuzzy, UKBiker - Thanks for interest and kind words. I initially thought about making plates to press these as I did with the magazine ribs, but then I thought about how much work that would be for a one-off and decided to just use a hammer to push a ram through. Now that I have to clean the mess up, I'm wondering if it might have been better to toil over the dies instead. Life lesson as I am NOT going to re-work these. I think I can manage the over-all appearance to look "worn" which would be fine by me and will be supported by the washed-out cold bluing. That's my thoughts now... we'll see...

I did clean the FCG up a little bit and fit the wood grips. Here's some photos of the current state of affairs...









-Ken
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  cabal2600

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Posted: August 29 2016 at 9:05pm | IP Logged Quote cabal2600

Original and standart build required stamping dies male and female halfs...
Original stg44 housing take about 25 mechanical procedures until final completion which barrel trunion installs into sheet metal shell and spot welded..
Notice:
Every single STG44 barrel block or trunion have it's own unique timing for bolt locking functionality,modified bolts most likely won't work properly...

This is critical part when anyone trying modify their bolt for MP44 or STG44,always remember like ZB30/Bren or SKS STG44 have special area where bolt get locked,SKS have a cross pin that serves as locking area,STG44 have special groove so if rifle been made in 1943-44 make sure you not use early bolt from 1942/43 model for example..

Bolts are very different compare early and later version which also lot of difference in firing pins as well..
Early firing pin version in shape of cross 4 grooved,post production 3 grooved instead and obvious not interchangeable...

The only feature STG44 skipped sniper scope railing neather on rear sight block or sright side of main housing like G43....

Most desirable WWGerman guns is MP40,STG44 and G43..
FG42 we not even talk about couse they like completely disappeared,in reality most of them resides neather in museums or private collections..
There is a way to make one if copy of original WW2 factory drawings available plus lot of material and machinery required for such unique project...

I personaly never hold FG42 in my hands before,never fired one but fired MG13 Dreyse and MG15 Bergman though..
Funny to say but original inventor of FG42 Lewis Stange same guy who made MG13 and MG34..
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  vintagemx0

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Posted: September 05 2016 at 10:35pm | IP Logged Quote vintagemx0

I got a little done - I riveted the cross-bracing pins in the pistol grip and fashioned a safety lever. The safety lever functions, but I ran out of weld wire late in the day and need to finish it. I also pressed the barrel in so i can mark where to grind the feed ramp, so I thought I would take some photos of it basically fully assembled...






...nearing the home stretch!

-Ken
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  backbencher

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Posted: September 06 2016 at 8:15pm | IP Logged Quote backbencher

It's flipping gorgeous.
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  cabal2600

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Posted: September 06 2016 at 9:07pm | IP Logged Quote cabal2600

Ken,
You got excellent machinist skills plus tough patience,can you make FG42 from sheet metal like you did with STG44...??? :
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  UKBiker

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Posted: September 10 2016 at 12:23pm | IP Logged Quote UKBiker

Ken I seriously doff my cap to you, this build is simply incredible. What you have achieved with the most basic of tools is quite astonishing.
I am so looking forwards to seeing this thing in the washed out blue
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  vintagemx0

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Posted: September 26 2016 at 10:39pm | IP Logged Quote vintagemx0

Thanks UKBiker, but the over-all quality of finish is going to be a little poor. I'm hoping that some of the attention to details will offset that enough that the end result will be good.


I managed to work on my project a little this last weekend. As always, there is a lot of cleanup yet to be done, but it is getting functionally close to completion.


Here are all of the elements of the fire control group. I used a wavy washer on the safety to maintain enough tension so a little protrusion on the bottom of the safety lever "clicks" into the little detents on the pistol grip.



I also made a sight hood for the front sight block, but I still need to fashion a sight post.



I pretty much completed the dust cover. The spring lost some of its strength from welding (got too hot), but it seems to function OK. Here it is closed...



And open...



I turned the barrel down a hair too much for the front sight block and it fit too loose, so I turned some knurling to fatten this area up...



And I ground the feed ramp and notched for the extractor...



All of these parts require more caressing to blend the steel a little better, but the receiver is going to look a little "beat-up" regardless. I'm fine with that as I feel it will give it a "patina" if you will. The only parts left to make from scratch are: The spring loaded plunger that retains the muzzle nut, the front sight post (with windage adjustment), front sling ring, charging handle, firing pin, and pistol grip hinge pin (a pin with an e-clip).

-Ken
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