So, I got called into work on Saturday. The downside is, I actually had to work and couldn't post a thoughtful response. Then it was so nice out on Sunday I decided to spend the day riding.
The cylinder on the far right is my original Model 970 blank cylinder.
The cylinder on the far left is a 929 Cylinder for a "swing out" model. Although this has the indexing teeth like my cylinder, the inside diameter is a bit different to accommodate a captive cylinder rod assembly.
The cylinder in the middle is a Model 922 "solid frame" type which is what I'm working with, however the teeth on the back of the cylinder have a swirl like turbine blades on a compressor wheel. This lead me down a rabbit hole of "early" and "late" model cylinder changes that were undocumented within H&R. H&R's terrible record keeping is known. They made several undocumented revision changes throughout years and across many models.
Otherwise, the two cylinders are 1.330 and 1.327 over all length. Both fit and function (as in free spin) just fine. I cannot run the ejector in the "swing out" model 929 cylinder, but with the ejector removed my straight pin goes in and supports the cylinder just fine.
This is the "swing out". The ejector is threaded and spring loaded. I assume to take up the slop in the swing arm.
Again, a swing out cylinder, this one with the arm.
So I need to find a 9 shot, .22 cylinder with the straight cam on the back and not the turbine blade style arcs.
I did find what appears to be one of the first primitive websites ever made (http://www.gun-parts.com/harringtonrichardson/) that lists cylinders for sale. He lists: #3 9 shot Short Flue, Length
1.330
Models
900,930-839-903-904..........$70
So I'm going to check similar models and pay more attention to the cam indexing dealy on the back.
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Paraquat
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Posted: April 10 2017 at 9:26am | IP Logged
This is what a I need. Found it by Googling "900 series H&R cylinder"
622 is a 6 shot .22 903 is a swing out 904 is a swing out 929 is a swing out 930 is a nickel 9 shot .22 swing out 939 is a swing out 999 is a break open.
"All in one". Depending on the cam mechanism, this is what I need.
Saving this for my own sanity.
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UKBiker
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Posted: April 10 2017 at 12:54pm | IP Logged
Right daft question time, have you tried fitting the solid frame cylinder with the turbine style ratchet, and seeing what the indexing is like when you cock the hammer and pull the trigger?
The reason I ask is because you may be lucky and find it works, or you may have to modify the hand slightly to suit, or simply buy the correct hand and fit that rather than buying a new cylinder
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Paraquat
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Posted: April 10 2017 at 1:14pm | IP Logged
I didn't actually try it with the internals. Maybe I will get lucky?
I just saw it and got immediately discouraged. I went looking for a Model 900 cylinder and found one without an ejector. Why are these things so damned complicated?
I'll try it tonight with the parts I current possess.
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UKBiker
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Posted: April 11 2017 at 6:34am | IP Logged
Good luck Para, I reckon you will be OK with it, or at worst the fitment of a new hand will be required. Once you have everything together try sliding a bore sized brass rod down the barrel and into the cylinder to check alignment for each chamber when you cock the hammer and pull the trigger, to make sure it is indexing correctly.
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Paraquat
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Posted: April 11 2017 at 7:15am | IP Logged
Ha. I'm appreciative of you, UKBiker, and of this forum. It did work. It was a bit "crunchy" at first. I took it apart and put it all back together. I must've missed something the first time because the second time was great... except it didn't index the cylinder.
In depth: I put it all together I could pull the hammer back and it locked 5/9 times but the cylinder did not index. I was using a used replacement lever. I took the cylinder out to find the lever that indexes the cylinder had fallen inside the receiver. It was not protruding enough to engage the cylinder.
I took it all apart.
I put it all back together with the original, extremely worn, lever. I could lock the hammer back 8/9 times, but double action only worked about 4/9 times. This is what's weird. If I shake my wrist all willy-nilly while trying to operate as a double action, it works. So something inside is interfering.
I do have a brand new lever I got from Numrich that I have yet to try. In the bag on the left. The lever on the right is the used eBay special.
I would like to post photos of the levers first because there seems to be some magic to the angle of the spring. I do not have a picture of the lever that is currently installed (the original).
Obviously I haven't seated or pinned the barrel yet. When I get home I'll take it all apart again and take a picture of the three different levers.
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backbencher
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Posted: April 11 2017 at 11:31am | IP Logged
Oh so close! Gave my brother an RG revolver in his stocking one Christmas, he promptly took it apart. Springs went everywhere. He got it back together enough so that SA would work if you manually indexed the cylinder. It did shoot, and finally I was able to give it away when someone poured some of their bulk .22" LR into mine. "Here! Take this!"
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UKBiker
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Posted: April 11 2017 at 12:44pm | IP Logged
Marvellous, now we're getting somewhere. The part you refer to as the lever is the hand, which rides up and pushes the on the ratchet when you cock the hammer S/A or pull the trigger D/A causing the cylinder to rotate just far enough to engage the lock in the bottom of the frame where it protrudes into the small recesses cut into the cylinder to ensure the cylinder chamber is in perfect alignment with the barrel. I would try fitting the brand new hand you have, and also have a look at the width of the lock and the recesses on the cylinder to ensure that the lock is engaging correctly with the cylinder recesses. A small burr or other damage to either the lock or cylinder recesses can cause the spring loaded lock to fail to engage into the recesses on the cylinder.
The is a very good video from Larry Potterfield at Midway showing how to adjust the timing on a revolver that has gone out of time, there are new hands available to cope with worn ratchets, and likewise new locks available.
Some filing and fettling of the hand may be required, or possibly a hand from the later version with the turbine style ratchet.
My next daft question is dum da dum dum (Scooby Doo style suspense music)....... is it possible to remove the ratchet from your original cylinder and fit it into your new cylinder? They all look to be manufactured as a separate part in the photos you show.
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Paraquat
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Posted: April 12 2017 at 9:01am | IP Logged
The swing out and rod assembly The replacement turbine cylinder my original cylinder
The ejectors are near identical but I had already reamed mine out to .250" Also they are pinned and while it goes together, the dowel pin doesn't mate correctly.
Here are all the pieces and parts without the receiver
I did an update on my phone for the camera and the new zoom is phenom! Anyway, there's a bite there and I'm wondering if that's why I only got 8/9 cycles. I don't know if that constitutes sufficient damage?
Here are the three hands Factory NOS in the bag used eBay replacement My original
Back side Factory NOS in the bag used eBay replacement My original
When I say my original is damaged, this is what I mean
My original cylinder stop doesn't have any burrs, but it does have this flat spot in the radius
flat spot in radius
One of the bags of parts I bought came with two replacement cylinder stops. One is a double pin not sure if that's just for extra alignment in the receiver? The double pin did not come with a spring. Both replacements appear suitable.
I wanted you to see the three hands, UKBiker, before proceeding any further. I still haven't given the video more than a glance but I will soon. I wanted to make apparent the bend in the original, eBay, and new.
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Paraquat
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Posted: April 12 2017 at 10:37am | IP Logged
Oh! I almost forgot. Detail 31, the sear. That's the pin that is bent.
Analysis shows it's 98.45% iron. I reproduced it with a high nickel/chrome steel alloy. I'll try it out tonight. Could explain why the hammer did not lock back every time in single action.
I also forgot to add the revolver does not hiccup in single or double action when the cylinder is removed, which leaves me highly suspect of the hand/cylinder interaction.
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UKBiker
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Posted: April 12 2017 at 7:27pm | IP Logged
Great pictures Para, they really show things well. A couple of things jump out at me, is it an optical illusion that the blank cylinder looks very slightly smaller diameter than the turbine cylinder?
If it is an optical illusion and both cylinders are the same outer diameter, then things should be OK
If the ratchet from the original blank cylinder fits into the new turbine cylinder then I would fit it and simply re-drill the hole for the small locating pin to align everything properly. as the ejector isn't used with the fixed cylinder once it is all aligned it should be OK.
I would use the new replacement hand and tweak the spring until it fits right and rotates properly. Your original hand looks completely boogered, I think the 8/9 on the turbine ratchet is probably down to the damaged hand and that nick out of the turbine ratchet surface.
Use the new single pin cylinder stop and adjust it if required, both the original and the new 2 pin variant appear to have flat spots on their radii. I wonder if the 2 pin version is for the swing out cylinder model.
With the new turbine cylinder fitted have you tried a brass bore diameter rod down the barrel into the cylinder to make sure everything is aligning correctly? I would hate for you to go through all the effort and hard work only to find the barrel and cylinder were slightly misaligned. It's a pain in the butt if they are misaligned but it isn't game over, it simply requires a bit of fiddling to sort out.
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backbencher
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Posted: April 13 2017 at 6:52am | IP Logged
Para, I am impressed you are still banging your head against the wall w/ this, and Biker, I'm impressed you have so much knowledge particularly given how deep you are behind enemy lines.
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UKBiker
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Posted: April 13 2017 at 4:36pm | IP Logged
Thanks BB, I enjoy most mechanical devices and seeing them working correctly is a particular passion. As you rightly say being this far behind enemy lines is a pain in the ass, I won't elaborate in public, but I have just been subjected to a 7 month investigation because of my interests in the fun subjects, which is partly the reason my attendance here has been somewhat sporadic since last August, though nothing illegal was going on
I have learned much from guys here, youtube vids, Scribd, and the books available on there, and also looking at deactivated stuff here, and antique obsolete calibre stuff which can be owned intact as the ammo is long since out of production. I wish things were as good here as over your side of the pond but sadly that isn't gonna happen any time soon.
I think Para will get the thing to run, it is one of those projects that has reached the "I ain't gonna let the SOB damned thing beat me" category. I am really looking forwards to Paras first range report from it, even if the accuracy is like trying to hit a cows arse with a banjo, if it runs it can be improved upon.
x 1
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backbencher
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Posted: April 14 2017 at 1:18am | IP Logged
Oh, for f**k's sake. You were investigated b/c this and that are legal to own, but you own to many things that are legal to own that we don't like? If you sods are reading this, go f**k yourselves. Ask Shia LeBeouf how easy it is to hide from freedom.
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UKBiker
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Posted: April 14 2017 at 7:15am | IP Logged
BB they got it into their heads that I was using my knowledge and interest along with my mill and lathe, in ways that were not conducive to my being able to ride my motorcycle for the next few years.
Back on subject I hope Para gets time to work on it over the Easter weekend, I'm really interested to see him get the thing running
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backbencher
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Posted: April 14 2017 at 12:17pm | IP Logged
The right of the people to keep and bear arms is not an American right - it is a natural right, and weaponized autism is a bitch. Death to tyrants.
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Paraquat
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Posted: April 17 2017 at 1:15pm | IP Logged
Tell me how you really feel, BB.
I'm alive. Just partied like I haven't partied in over a decade.
Anyway, I sat down on Thursday and bent the spring. Got out two pliers and bent it to match. Bent this way, bent that way. It has to be fully disassembled or full assembled so I got good at that.
I couldn't get it to engage all the way. I finally got sick of it and pretty mutilated the spring, so I took a punch and went in through the hammer hole and just pushed the hand forward with all my might.
It worked. I have a wee bit too much forward compared to the uppy downy motion of the hand, so there's a fair bit of mechanical drag in both single and double action, but it works. Now that I watched that guys video I'm concerned I relieve the forcing cone too much, but, not concerned enough to start over.
The cylinder stop that was advised would not function. You can see in the picture with the internals that it rides on the front of the trigger. Whether the edges are not broken in, or it's dimensionally different, it makes the trigger pull absolutely terrible.
Lastly, it only really locks the cylinder in ghetto mode (rotated 90 degrees). When I went to investigate I found the ID of the cylinder to be 5/32" opposed to my guide pin of 1/8" Fortunately I got another guide pin with that cylinder, so I'm just going to turn the nose down. Make sense? Probably not. I'll post a picture.
The pin on the top is going to have the nose trimmed down to 1/8" so it seats in the receiver, while the next shoulder will remain 5/32 to align the cylinder. I know I'll need to cut another retention groove, but I want to prove this out first.
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Paraquat
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Posted: April 17 2017 at 1:54pm | IP Logged
Like this. Hopefully this will still align the 5/32" ID of the cylinder, and seat in the 1/8" hole in the receiver. I meant to add, I believed the problem with the lock was the cylinder spinning eccentrically. The blank firing cylinder is 1.330 OD and the real cylinder is 1.328" OD.
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UKBiker
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Posted: April 18 2017 at 6:16am | IP Logged
I think this little project is going to require lots of hand fitting and fettling to get it to run right. Try the original cylinder lock and see how that goes, it's strange that it needs to be laid over 90 degrees in Ghetto mode to engage correctly, maybe the tabs on the front of the trigger have bedded in with the original and the new one needs a little hand fitting.
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backbencher
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Posted: April 18 2017 at 10:06am | IP Logged
And my vocabulary has expanded today, to boot. Para, this is a fascinating exposition on why revolvers have dropped in popularity. I wish I could help, but all I can do is cheer from the sidelines.
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