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Chamber Reamer
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  ds1948

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Posted: April 21 2018 at 3:46pm | IP Logged Quote ds1948

How far back does a chamber reamer's cutting edge extend past the length of the cartridge it was designed for? For example, a .223 case is about 45mm. Is the cutting edge on a reamer for that round 50mm for example, or is it shorter as the action usually encloses the base of a round, at least in a rifle round like this. The reason I ask is royal nonsuch is designing an extended chamber .45acp by firing it a .45lc chamber. By my estimates, judging by comparison of sizes, he easily has a 3/4 pound bolt. He will not confirm or deny, as he is afraid of someone blowing themselves up, but that is what my math and pixels suggest. In case you are curious i have posted in a few threads discussing conservation of momentum and how it relates to blowback bolt weights. Im not your average person asking if a blowback .223 is possible. I actually have done math.

Anyway, this has gotten me interested in extended chambers in semi auto closed bolt weapons. To make it you know legal without a lot of paperwork. The royal nonsuch example above is not api, at least not yet, so it shows that extended chambers can be used without the momentum of an api cannon like an oerlikon. Some oerlikon rounds have shoulders, not as much as a .223 though, so I think it would be an interesting project and possibly doable. I thought about doing a .308 in a 30-06 chamber but the shoulder diameter is different so I would still have to ream the chamber anyways. Hence my question. Besides, a .223 will be safer to work around as it requires a much lighter bolt. Also of course this will require oil, grease, or flutes to work. I have no illusions that a .223 case dragging on a chamber at max pressure at 30fps is pretty. Flutes would be cut with ECM as I am sure someone will ask about that.
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  backbencher

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Posted: April 22 2018 at 12:23am | IP Logged Quote backbencher

I don't understand what you're asking, but it sounds interesting and mildly dangerous, albeit not gas-delayed blowback bullpup dangerous.
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  ds1948

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Posted: April 22 2018 at 1:23pm | IP Logged Quote ds1948

Sorry I guess the question is how long is the average reamer in relation to the chamber that you are cutting? Is the cutting surface longer than the total cartridge length, or is it the same size or shorter. Like I said for a .223 reamer is it able to cut a chamber that is 50mm for example or do the cutting edges only go to 45mm or less. Sorry I tend to get excited and post probably more details than needed to answer a question.
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  bikergunnut

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Posted: April 22 2018 at 1:58pm | IP Logged Quote bikergunnut

Reamers are longer than needed for headspace reasons. You may have an issue with your idea with any tapered cartridge. Haven't measured e reamer to see if the taper stops at a given diameter but I would guess they do.
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  backbencher

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Posted: April 22 2018 at 3:08pm | IP Logged Quote backbencher

5.7x28mm FN is a tapered cartridge that runs in blowback actions, but uses a Teflon-type coating to do so.
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  Paraquat

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Posted: April 23 2018 at 6:12am | IP Logged Quote Paraquat

I'm heavily conflicted. On one hand I love new ideas that haven't been thought of yet and pushing boundaries.
On the other hand I love 9mm because it's been done to death.

I agree that this sounds like it will cause you harm and I'd advise against it.
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  backbencher

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Posted: April 23 2018 at 10:17am | IP Logged Quote backbencher

As a tripod-mounted "other" with a heavy-enough bolt, I think there are no issues.  Great .300 Blackout brass production machine.  Put a hopper up top.

As a shoulder fired weapon, I think only Brazilian drug gangs have made this work, and their liability in cases of personal injury is very limited.  Those guns were also heavy.

It's doable, particularly as an experiment, but I think it will be very heavy.
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  ds1948

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Posted: April 23 2018 at 12:04pm | IP Logged Quote ds1948

Thanks for the concerns gentleman. That is why I am heavily math dependent. First I need to determine the taper of the reamer in question and determine the tensile strength of the cartridge mouth that I would use. Don't worry. If anything is build it will be a long way off. This is in its infancy. Teflon is a no go for me as I live in a state banning its use on bullets. Even if I just used it on the case, I would not want to take that risk. I may try microcrystalline wax or flutes like I said. Also backbencher, I am curious why use a hopper?
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  backbencher

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Posted: April 23 2018 at 1:30pm | IP Logged Quote backbencher

If your state permits 5.7x28mm FN, then teflon on cases is fine; spray down the cases before loading.

Flutes will help, wax would help, hell, build in a case oiler.  An HK 33/53 or clone bbl will have flutes built in, due to the rapid extraction of the roller-delayed blowback action.

I'm a fan of ammo hoppers, and hope to get one working in an AR @ some point; it solves some issues for the ban states, and if your gun is heavy enough to be tripod mounted, it would greatly speed up ammo feeding; no mags to change.
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  ds1948

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Posted: April 23 2018 at 1:56pm | IP Logged Quote ds1948

Thanks for the heads up, 5.7x28 is legal where I live so a good teflon coating will work. That should help a ton. Besides I will try to find loads that minimize pressure and not velocity. For example from Hodgoden's website there are loads that develop only 43,300psi such as the one with cfe223. As this is only slightly above 9mm+p and below the max for 5.7x28 I will start their to avoid pressure concerns.
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  backbencher

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Posted: April 23 2018 at 3:59pm | IP Logged Quote backbencher

For a quick and dirty experiment, you might try using the following bits:

1 - Flat Spot steel AR lower w/ steel rifle length buffer tube welded on.
2 - 9x19mm blowback AR bolt.  Perhaps drill it and fill the recesses with lead.
3 - Heavy hammer spring.
4 - HK 33/93 bbl  - it has a fluted chamber.
5 - Preferably a steel upper - Justin has sketched out a design - want to make it right side charging, seal the rear charging handle hole.  At the least, a right hand charging upper and seal the rear hole.
6 - Take a rifle buffer, pull it apart, and replace every weight w/ a tungsten one.
7 - Use the heaviest rifle spring you can find.
8 - Spray down your cases w/ Teflon, wax em after that, and maybe fill the magazine w/ oil.
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  ds1948

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Posted: April 24 2018 at 12:26pm | IP Logged Quote ds1948

I am definately thinking about using an AR lower. It is simple and easy to find. I would create a custom upper though as that will allow me to have a really long length of travel. This is easy on springs and the receiver. Custom bolt from round stock will also allow me to achieve a heavier bolt in a shorter package. It will also allow me to start at a much heavier bolt, like 4 pounds, and slowly remove mass down to a much lighter mass. While I like the idea of flutes, I do not know if they would interfere with the teflon or wax coating. The high pressure gas hitting the coating might melt it prematurely and aid in gunking up the chamber. Reliable first shot delay is nice but I would also like some second shot reliability. Hence the capability to use the AR lower. I have thought about using motorcycle springs for the rifle spring and have a qc barrel setup to load cartridges. Then I just need the hammer to be accessible from the outside to cock it like an rpg. That way I do not need to worry about cocking it. This would lower the required mass of the bolt though so I do not know if I wil go this route unless I go to .50bmg. That is a joke by the way.   
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  backbencher

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Posted: April 24 2018 at 4:45pm | IP Logged Quote backbencher

Well, lol, have I got a deal for you!

https://www.fddefense.com/

Kinda defeats the purpose of a cheap blowback gun @ $1200 for the complete upper, but it will work for your purposes...



If you don't feel like spending that kinda money, you could get longer travel in the upper by going side charging with a fixed handle up on the front of the bolt, and just cut a slot all the way to the rear of the upper.  If you want to go further than that, your're gonna have to cut on the lower.

To cock the hammer, cut another slot on the upper, and weld a cocking spur to the side of the hammer, sticking out of the upper.  If you're a right handed shooter, I'd put all your cuts on the right side.  That way if the case lets go the gas & fragments will go that way, not on your face.
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  Paraquat

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Posted: April 25 2018 at 11:17am | IP Logged Quote Paraquat

I love it. Rapid deployment.

Needs a 10.5 barrel.
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  ds1948

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Posted: April 25 2018 at 12:44pm | IP Logged Quote ds1948

one of the reasons I was doing a custom upper is it would allow me to use really heavy gauge metal for the reciever. I am thinking at least 1/8 thick, maybe 1/4. Combine that with a large cut out for ejection and this will help with the safety of it. Also the bolt will be bare bones and will not have an extractor as a .223 does not have a rebated rim. Including one would only increase the chance of a case head separation. This will prevent things from flying out when the case is ejected if the case head does fail which is doubt. Seeing as the case head is well supported via the chamber, the area of concern is the neck but a separation up there will prevent another round from being chambered hopefully. I could always install a bolt stop like the oerlikon used in case of that type of malfunction. Also I like the idea for the hammer that you mentioned. For a charging handle, or lack there of, I was thinking about going the grease gun route and just have a chunk taken out of it. Once again simple and it will never fly off if the bolt velocity is too much..
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  backbencher

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Posted: April 25 2018 at 10:50pm | IP Logged Quote backbencher

Keep in mind an AR bolt will heat up faster than a .45 ACP bolt, and the M3 was an open bolt weapon - if all went right, the user never had to charge it.  W/ the AR, unless you use a LRBHO (which tend to break on blowback ARs), the user will have to operate the bolt at the beginning of every magazine.  A bolt handle also adds mass, and you can use every bit of mass on that bolt you can get.
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  ds1948

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Posted: April 26 2018 at 8:14am | IP Logged Quote ds1948

LRBHO? Last round bolt hold open? I am unfamiliar with that acronym. Sorry by background is biology. I agree with every once of mass though and perhaps that will help align the bolt in the receiver as well along with the guide rods for the springs I was going to use. That assumes of course that I can find springs of the correct everything that I would need.
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Posted: April 28 2018 at 10:06am | IP Logged Quote backbencher

Last
Round
Bolt
Hold
Open

equivalent to a slide stop/slide release on an automatic pistol.  A handy luxury on an AR, but not essential.
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