Has anyone made progress with the FND yet???

i think most are waiting on rec's. they seem to be in the near future. stay tuned to the site.

I have yet to get the time to work on mine.

Some day, soon.

Ladies and Gentlemen,

I echo the sentiment of Foobar on the FND-Bar semi design. I finally dusted off my "relics" out of their original shipping box. I can't remember who I had bought them from, but I believe I paid around $60.00 each. Within the past five years I got 1 torch cut receiver.

While I don't have the "desirable" FND kits (I have 7mm) I did get the torch cut receiver as a .308. I also bought up 6-8mags in 7mm.... long... long ago.

Someone at one time was talking about making a dummy receiver. I thought this would be useful for outside/ overall dimensions (especially when I didn't have a torch cut receiver).

Does anyone have any feeling about semi- receivers or how to kick this project in the butt?

The rate reducer is not needed, and I was thinking about how to design the gas system to work with a semi bolt and ar15 trigger group (I would also consider a G2 AK Tapco group).

I have looking into mine several times, and it would be a simple build once welded. 

I'm just waiting for a rewelding jig.

Any more of these available?

I expect to give this project a kick in the butt next weekend once my DP28 receiver is welded up semi. 

Anyone even have plans/drawings for a receiver.  While related to a BAR, there's enough different (pistol grip, etc.) that I don't think BAR line drawings can be modified to fit it.

I think it shares the name with the BAR, but not really anything else.

Mr. Weaponeer,

You are absolutely correct on the BAR. This ain't your Daddy's BAR. Its a different animal. One mod that was made, was that they have a quick change barrel (which really rocks). They also have a rate reducer that could be stripped or ignored (depending on our conversion). If my memory serves me on the various iterations of the 1918 was that it was selective fire (1918) then went to FA only (1918A2). So obviously, the rate reducer was NOT present on the US Bars.

I have chased line drawings for years, and have come up empty handed. There was a fellow about 10years ago that swore he was working on getting them, but I don't believe he ever succeeded. Venom Research? That was the name of his "company". Heck, if we had a line drawing... then this would be way to easy! :)

I got my cut receiver out of the back of Small Arms Review. The guy had a few receivers that he was selliing, and I only had $$ for one. This was probably 4+ years? Anyway it includes the mag well section, but due to the cuts, it is hard to judge the distances... so line drawings would help. I think that SAR did an article on FND's if I find it, I will point it out to people.

Gundoctor,

I see parts at Sarco... barrels etc. I don't recall seeing complete kits though in many years. Somebody was buying them from a vender off the internet as .308 recently (past 5 years). If my memory is jogged I could cough up the vender, but I thought they had ran out of parts when I finally looked. Remember this was considered a joke of a gun... about 10years ago. When I told people my interest I was told to buy a 1918 and throw away the FND stuff. For some reason, it was NOT liked by gun people... since it wasn't a "real" BAR (?). However, if you do the research, you will see that its like the 2nd or 3rd Generation of the design, which was finally sidelined due to weight, cost and limited mag capacity, for a SAW. I think its interesting due to its place in "evolution". Its like calling the ZB series of LMG worthless because they aren't Brens. But people do like guns that were used in WWII. I have been told that since the FND Bar wasn't involved in any "real" wars, it has no place in Military Collections.

One plan that I have, is to build up a receiver, exchange the 7mm parts for .308 through Sarco as a trade in. I figure that the barrel and receiver due to extensive mods, are the only worry that I have on parts interchange (7mm to .308). While I don't mind different cals. I am trying to stick with common ammo (that is cheap). You normally don't find 7mm Mauser by the tin at Walmarts or Dunhams, and I would hate to reload for it. However, I am told that 7mm was a superior round that just purrs. Low recoil, good ballistics.

Anyway, I have the option of using the second kit as spare parts, and using the first torch cut receiver as a template for milling out a second receiver (out of a block of 4140 or tool steel etc). When I build, I try for two guns. One as a backup/ spare shooter.

My guns also came with a barrel nut (no flash hiders) and has the bipod attached. Cool stuff.

The vender is long out of business that I dealt with, they were known for poor quality parts and service, and I am missing the rear sights. However, all the parts that I did get were excellent with pretty thick blueing. Wood was pretty good, with the front handguards being a little sad (but cleaned up well). I THINK, the story was that the kits that I purchased were from South America?

Well, enough rambling... Lets get it rockin!!!

Ladies and Gentlemen,

Here are some photos of my FND Bar. Note torch cut, and saw cut, receiver. They didn't want it welded back together!

Next photo shows how much metal is missing. The receiver end that the barrel goes into, and the magwell were pretty well torched. Note the "improvised" pins. They are in the box with the 2nd kit.

This next photo shows the amount of saw cut receiver portion missing. You can also see that the carry handle needs to be cleaned up. Not a problem though.

Note on this next photo the "cool" crown and text on this part of the receiver. However, during rewelding (to convert to SA function) this will probably get zapped. Alot of this portion of the receiver has pits. Based on the spaces and the surface finishes, I figure that I have at least 3 different receivers making up my parts.

The next photo shows the "dust" cover for the ejection port. I don't believe this was on the "original" BAR.

If you look close at the front handguard, you can see the place for "keeping" the barrel in place. Simply push a button, twist and pull the "spent" barrel out. However, the button is currently missing. I believe its in the box.... Can't remember.

1. I would like a show of hands to see how many torch cut receivers "we" have? Perhaps if we combine forces we can work out dimensions. While I can "estimate" I would rather be accurate.

2. How many people just have FND BAR kits with no recievers?

3. What calibers do people have? I have two 7mm sets with 1, .308 receiver. How the guy came up with the caliber, I don't know. There is NO cal. info that I can see.

Please note the following with regards to Sarco:

They have 30-06 barrels in good condition for: $85.00

7mm barrels for $70.00

They have an FND '06 barrel, 10 mags, flash hider, cleaning rod and stripped trigger housing for $95.00.

In their "rare" FND goodies they have flash hiders for $19.95, broken shell remover $12.50, cleaning rod (original) for $10.00. If you go with the combo deal its $34.50 for all the "rare" goodies.

"Dave" notes that "We have lots of new and used parts for FND: 7mm, 8mm, 30-06 and .308".

Gee, wish I could have gotten a .308 or 8mm version, however who would have guessed 10 years ago that prices/ kit availability would be so different.

The last image is of a "complete" FND BAR that I got off the internet at an auction site probably less than two years ago. I was going to use it (image), my cut receiver and some guesswork to start fabbing something together.

My stumbling block has been the bolt/ bolt carrier. I was thinking of an AR/ AK/ FNFAL FCG for SA. However there isn't much room in the trigger housing for fooling around.

Lets start some thing here guys!

I have a 7mm kit and no reciever.

Should we make this a "poll" at the top of the page? Easier to keep track?

I talked to a manufacturer at the SAR show about to release a Bar rec if they were gonna do an Fnd,they said not enough interest to warrent production .

bikergunnut,

Being "new" to the forum, I don't know how you would set up a poll. By all means if it helps "us" lets set one up. I have never gotten an "estimate" of kits for the FND that were imported. 10? 12? 12,000? All I know, is that the FND would be an SOB to mill out. Lots of angles and cuts.

I would be willing to send my FND cut receiver to a select member if they would wish to CMM it, on a LOANER basis. Its not doing me much good sitting here (I have alot of projects). But if any info could be gained to help others... I have not spent much time working on it, but 90% of the receiver could be figured out with Mag. dimensions and aligning holes. As it was sitting on the floor, the mag would lock in, so I am close to figuring it out. Anyway, an 80% receiver would help alot of us, a long way.

Sounds like you ran across the same attitude at the SAR show as I keep getting. Its like the FND is an orphan child. Nobody wants it! I keep hearing "lack" of interest... "Lack" of interest...

What appealed to me, is that the FND is an UBER BAR. Also, it was cheaper!

Midmichigan, I have no idea how many kits came in. It certainly seems to be a redheaded stepchild, nobody wants to "waste" time on prototype time for production. Kinda like the CZ's the kits are out there just nobody doin anything with 'em. I still have hopes for them both (Fnd and Cz's) .

Bikergunnut,

I haven't dealt with the Cz's yet. Probably won't either with the kit so- called "ban". I have less than 8 kits left to build. Probably won't be able to afford any more when I am finished (thats why the ATF is doing this, you don't need to officially ban, when you can regulate to death).

I think I originally found Weaponeer while looking for info on the FND. I also see the talent and figure that somebody here is smart enough to figure this out.

If I see any more receivers for sale, I will PM you.

I thought I had heard that ANY rewelded receiver is STILL a FA device regardless of its end configuration. Hence why I was/ am leary about the Bren thread and about activating my torch- cut to SA configuration. I thought the 80% receiver would be safer... but as everyone with a MG42/ 34 and Bren seems to know, it is expensive to make a new one from a billet... and apparently NOW the ATF doesn't seem to worry about rewelds?

I haven't figured out the $$ just for the billet of steel for the FND. That there adds on $$ regardless of CNC programming and time making the parts. An 80% receiver is going to be VERY expensive I feel, hence part of the concern about making them for sale.

However, if you look at the 1918BAR kits at Sarco, I think they are around $1500. Perhaps they are taken more seriously since the 1918 is a REAL BAR, and the people spent $$ on them?

This knowledge should be available from all the BREN rewelds... However, to kick this thread off... lets start thinking.

1. Does anyone have a feel for the type of steel used in the FND BAR receiver? Also, what type of rods and filler metal should be used?

2. As per 922R, what is the status of the pistol grip? Can we carve out new wood/ plastic grips or do we need to also fabricate the steel frame they screw into? With the AK's you just drop the grip and tighten in a new one (US made). This decision is easy.. but I don't know about the FND.

3. Also, with the forend, if I take careful photo's and dimensions, and I post them for verifications, it shouldn't be hard to fab new ones. Is there any interest in building rail systems like for FAL's or AK's... or are most people looking for a "classic look"? BTW, I do know an out of work, wood worker. I also want to verify my wood grips, since I COULD use them to locate my reweld in that portion (look at above photos to see missing metal).

4. I can't get my buttstock apart. Everything is VERY tight and I can't disassemble. I would love to carve out a US part... for the parts count. Any secrets for disassembly?

5. Gas Piston? Mine is around 8.5 inches. It is fixed by a blind pin hole to the bolt carrier? (figuring out nomenclature here guys). The piston diameter is less than .75in. Do we have a US part that could be adapted from... an AK type rifle (to keep up US parts count)? My AK pistons seem to be around 6.5 inches.

6. What would be a convenient way (for those of you sitting in front of your kits) to block the receiver/ trigger area to prevent FA parts install.

7. While I love different ideas, can we start thinking about FCG's?

8. Bolt mods... along with FCG... What type of system to use? Striker? Remember we need to make it a closed bolt system.

It would appear to me, that the hardest part of this project would be the bolt carrier part. You will notice it in my above posts laying on the ground. It appears that the bolt is attached at the end of this part with some linkage (the bolt actually moves up and down while traveling linearly). If I relocate the FCG with linkage, there isn't much space in the back, for a hammer/ disconnector. The bolt carrier also has a pin that the charging handle attaches to. Good news is that the bolt appears drill for a firing pin. It could probably be drilled out for a spring.

Just some initial thoughts and ideas.

Will somebody send me a kit to look at?  Any caliber, prefer with cut receiver.  I will keep only long enough to do some measuring and thinking and send it back.

I will pay shipping both ways and throw in a surprise.

Doc

Other points:

The rewelded reciever will be totally legal as long as it is in semi config.  Once cut, it is scrap metal and you can do with as you please.  What you can't do is modify a FA to semi without going thru a full, approved demil first.

Second.  I can mold any pistol grips, forearms, etc that might be needed for compliance.    I need to look at the fcg to see what can be done there either making U.S. or changing fcg altogether.


Edited by gundoctor

The FCG is a non-issue..  the AR FCG would work just fine based on my findings this summer.

new wood butt stock, wood grip panels, and even forearm panels would greatly help with 922r

if your not stuck with the original looks you could always update it to modern plastic in maybe an M249 style.  anything is possible.

The FND needs two semi blocks..  one for the bolt, and one for the lower receiver/gip assy.

 

I want to hold one in my hands so that I can study the locking mechanism.

Everyone,

I like the idea of the AR FCG. Obviously everything comes down to space and geometry. What are you thinking for the bolt, Mr. Weaponeer? Its seems to have some strange linkage that could get in the way of a hammer. However, if the bolt/ bolt carrier (with attached gas piston) was modified this linkage could be deleted? That would simplify everything and you would have a novel non- FA system.

Also, thanks for the clarification on the welded receiver. I didn't know all the nuts and bolts on that law... just some snippets.

Based on what I see with the furniture, this would be an easy 922r fix... except I can't get my buttstock apart.  I may try and work on one tonight just to get it apart. Anyway I was just concerned that the "grip stick" would be an issue, but if slapping on a new pair of sides, covers 922r, I feel Happy!

I will post more pics of the FCG area until we can get gundoctor something to hold! :) I have never looking inside a 1918, 1918A2 or the new 1918A3 so I can't comment how close it is.

Does anyone know of a vender selling kids? I am also getting the feeling that the torch cut receivers tend to be rare?