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"Slam bang" shotgun, how they work
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  Kenny_McCormic

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Posted: July 17 2009 at 12:28am | IP Logged Quote Kenny_McCormic

By how they work I do not mean barrel slide back and touches off shell. I mean how do they stay together? Is barrel mass really the only thing locking it up? 
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  oprod

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Posted: July 17 2009 at 8:31am | IP Logged Quote oprod

i sure hope nobody responds to this kind of enquiry
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  nacht

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Posted: July 17 2009 at 8:55am | IP Logged Quote nacht

There is nothing (to my knowledge) that holds the barrel in the receiver.

Perhaps you can get more information by searching for WWII guerrilla made firearms.  These were used "a lot" in the Phillippine Islands against the Japanese.

They were also made commercially in the USA for a few years back in the 1950s or 1960s.

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  taztheblade

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Posted: July 17 2009 at 9:49am | IP Logged Quote taztheblade

they are also against NFA rules so they would be jail time to make, possess, buy  or use.

this is what would be classed as a zip gun.

it would more than likely be dangerous to fire as well.

my advice is stay away from if you want to keep your freedom, all your body parts where they are, and dont want to end up bubba's "wife" in the big house. 

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  Branny

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Posted: July 17 2009 at 11:43pm | IP Logged Quote Branny

For academic use only. 2009-07-17_234317_4windssg.zip

 

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  Kenny_McCormic

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Posted: July 19 2009 at 10:56pm | IP Logged Quote Kenny_McCormic

nacht wrote:

There is nothing (to my knowledge) that holds the barrel in the receiver.

Perhaps you can get more information by searching for WWII guerrilla made firearms.  These were used "a lot" in the Phillippine Islands against the Japanese.

They were also made commercially in the USA for a few years back in the 1950s or 1960s.



I am aware of that, might be worth looking into.

taztheblade wrote:

they are also against NFA rules so they would be jail time to make, possess, buy  or use.

this is what would be classed as a zip gun.

it would more than likely be dangerous to fire as well.

my advice is stay away from if you want to keep your freedom, all your body parts where they are, and dont want to end up bubba's "wife" in the big house. 



What NFA rule does it violate? I didn't say I was making one, and if I did it sure wouldn't be a SBS/AOW, and would use somehting a bit more trustworthy than a piece of pipe for a barrel. 
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  midmichigun

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Posted: July 19 2009 at 11:30pm | IP Logged Quote midmichigun

Kenny,

Welcome aboard our Merry Ship of Pirates!

Thanks for bringing up a little known genre. I didn't know they were made in the US at one time or used in Philly during WWII. Cool!

I think some of the concern by the posters here... is the Destructive Device (DD)or All Other Weapon (AOW) that the ATF posts on things. Heck, I don't see anything wrong with a belt fed 12 gage "street sweeper". But who am I? But seriously though, people do get concerned about new people asking questions.... But I really don't know about "slam fire" guns... I think some of us are concerned by "single fire per single PULL OF TRIGGER" via ATF directives.

I "think" that they are primarily held together (if using a pump) via bolt weight, and force of operator holding onto the forearm. Not knowing alot about them... I don't think that any mechanical means are being used to "lock" the bolt in place...

Post more information if you have any... Thanks!

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  Kenny_McCormic

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Posted: July 20 2009 at 1:23am | IP Logged Quote Kenny_McCormic

Being a single shot I'm not too worried about DD classification, nor will I probably ever make one till I get the physics figured out. No there is not any mechanical device holding it together, and there is no way a human being can hold back a good 4 tons of force.

Cobray made a (very rare) shotgun called the Terminator based on this design, but it used a spring instead of a barrel mounted handle.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=129116280

















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  sts440

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Posted: July 20 2009 at 9:49am | IP Logged Quote sts440

Almost seems like an open-breech power-head (diver's anti-shark tool).  Not too sure of the advantage of this over any other single-shot shotgun other than perhaps a recoil benefit.
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  nacht

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Posted: July 20 2009 at 10:34am | IP Logged Quote nacht

I don't know if Cobray's shotgun was self-ejecting or not, but it appears like it would not be to hard to do so.......provided there was a choked barrel installed.

I would think the choke would pull the barrel forward, removing the shell, and allowing a spring loaded exjector to throw the empty shell out.  Maybe even self-cocking as well.  That would speed reloading a new shell.

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  midmichigun

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Posted: July 20 2009 at 11:08am | IP Logged Quote midmichigun

Kenny,

Bingo on human arm holding it closed. Same with bolt weight. Probably more incidental than anything else.

Cool looking design. If we could make it "closed bolt" it would be a nifty gun! We should think about a build like your Cobray in the pic. It would be better with a 20 rd magazine though!

But anyway... is this the definition of "open bolt" vs. "closed bolt"? I remember someone talking about open bolt being little advantage, and bad medicine with the ATF.

Thanks for sharing!

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  Kenny_McCormic

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Posted: July 20 2009 at 11:55am | IP Logged Quote Kenny_McCormic

"Open bolt" is illegal because its "readily convertible" to full auto. Good luck getting a mag on this thing, its more like an open barrel anyways.  
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  gundoctor

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Posted: July 20 2009 at 1:55pm | IP Logged Quote gundoctor

With barrel bore over 0.5", ATF classification as "sporting" becomes very relevant.   This is how pump or semi drum-fed's are classified--non-sporting and therefore a DD.  
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  midmichigun

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Posted: July 20 2009 at 4:01pm | IP Logged Quote midmichigun

Kenny and GD,

Hence my concern about this looking like an open bolt design... even though it is "single shot". Could the ATF rule this as a DD?

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  nacht

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Posted: July 20 2009 at 7:33pm | IP Logged Quote nacht

If the ATF rules this as a DD, then the other shotguns will be illegal as well.

Face it, this is just an easy to build, simple, single barrel 12 gauge shotgun.

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  Kenny_McCormic

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Posted: July 20 2009 at 8:50pm | IP Logged Quote Kenny_McCormic

Its a single shot and 2 production guns like it have passed as sporting(cobray and one built just like the WW2 variant), I doubt it would go as a DD. I don't think the Cobray self ejected, nor do I think it is possible to do so. Like I said forget legal issues, I am not worried about them. I wont be building one of these(or at least firing one with it near me) until I get the physics behind it figured out.
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  gundoctor

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Posted: July 21 2009 at 12:52am | IP Logged Quote gundoctor

I don't think the "sporting" will past constitutional must after Heller.  Thoughts?

Someone post some link so I can understand what a slam bang is.  Is it simply an open bolt that uses bolt inertia to allow firing 12g without a locking bolt?

If so, the physics are fairly simple.  Energy is a function of mass and velocity, so for a given bolt weight it has more effective "mass" (actually energy) if it is moving forward when the round is fired. 
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  Kenny_McCormic

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Posted: July 21 2009 at 2:04am | IP Logged Quote Kenny_McCormic

gundoctor wrote:
I don't think the "sporting" will past constitutional must after Heller.  Thoughts?

Someone post some link so I can understand what a slam bang is.  Is it simply an open bolt that uses bolt inertia to allow firing 12g without a locking bolt?

If so, the physics are fairly simple.  Energy is a function of mass and velocity, so for a given bolt weight it has more effective "mass" (actually energy) if it is moving forward when the round is fired. 


Here is a commercial version
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=132773570
The trigger is a safety.


Basic ghetto grade instructions.

Take 12" piece of threaded 1" pipe, bore out to slide fit 3/4" pipe(barrel).

Make steel plug to tight fit into 1" pipe, drill hole through center and insert a rounded off nail, this is the firing pin, insert breach block into pipe and add pipe cap. Adding a piece of wood for a stock is advised.

Grind seam out of 3/4" pipe so a 12 gauge shell fits, bite the shell before inserting so it stays chambered.

Insert the loaded barrel into the 1" pipe, slam it home to make it go boom.
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  nacht

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Posted: July 21 2009 at 10:27am | IP Logged Quote nacht

Just as Kenny said.

As the full bore barrel has no restrictions, the pellets are not compressed as they leave the barrel.  The recoil kick should not be any worst than a commercial made full-bore 12 gauge shotgun.

The main purpose of the SB shotgun in the Phillipines was as a means to get a weapon & ammo off a dead Japanese soldier.

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  scatter cat

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Posted: August 08 2009 at 11:30pm | IP Logged Quote scatter cat

 I dont remember the name of the movie but in one of the old Charles Bronson movies theirs a guy shooting one. The one where his daughter gets killed and he turns vigalante.
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